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Great question, and I would be curious to see the membership data. For starters, I think there are a grand total of zero people on this forum posting opinions on this issue based upon that data. Immediately following the change, how did the distribution between tuba and euphonium players change, both in raw numbers and percentages?

I don’t know the answer to that question, but it might be a good research project for someone interested in having informed opinions.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to state that membership for ITEA is much higher than T.U.B.A. ever was (citation needed though).

The fact that there are a few vocal and disgruntled individuals on this forum really doesn’t tell me anything at all.

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: Wed May 07, 2025 3:49 pm Great question, and I would be curious to see the membership data. For starters, I think there are a grand total of zero people on this forum posting opinions on this issue based upon that data. Immediately following the change, how did the distribution between tuba and euphonium players change, both in raw numbers and percentages?

I don’t know the answer to that question, but it might be a good research project for someone interested in having informed opinions.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to state that membership for ITEA is much higher than T.U.B.A. ever was (citation needed though).

The fact that there are a few vocal and disgruntled individuals on this forum really doesn’t tell me anything at all.

Well duh there is a huge explosion in population in the country and numbers of tuba players most likely in the last 30 years - and I’m sure they have swelled the ranks with kids as well. Even then I’d be surprised if it is that much bigger or at all - honestly don’t care. I (despite your disdain for this forum and the people in it) - think this forum is a pretty good cross section of the tuba player community - from Pros - serious amateurs - to amateur- to just getting back to playing - with the exception of very young school players and the vocal nobody else has a clue just out of school woke population - that took control of that other forum. And honestly I get more out of this forum than I ever got out of ITEA. This thread was generated by the other thread asking whether or not to rejoin ITEA. No compelling reason has been put forth yet for any player (the majority here are not full time pros) to join or in most cases here to rejoin. They just don’t do anything that benefits us nor do we agree with a lot of the ideological dogma they wish to jam down our throats.

Well duh that’s why I said a percentage analysis in addition to raw numbers. We would be interested in if there was an uptick in euphonium players relative to tuba players to gauge whether the change was successful.

What criteria would you propose? Because I made a suggestion of a starting point for what would probably require some pretty thorough research and analysis. Based on what you’ve said, you’re not interested in verifying the claim and are more happily to ignorantly be mad about it. As i said, I’d love to see the data and learn more.

I would also be curious about the actual demographic of this forum, because my sense is different than yours. My impression is that there are at best a single digit number of people who hold full time jobs, very few young or college players, and the vast majority are adult amateurs and adult serious amateurs. I also think there are very few college professors here.

Toobuh
Ufonyem
Beer
Associates

girls too...you betcha !

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: Wed May 07, 2025 2:06 pm @russiantuba Cool then start one. Or keep whining about it like everyone here whines about the good ol’ days of T.U.B.A. and do nothing about. Your choice.

Ironically when I am researching, or sending students to research, besides a couple composer interviews (namely Gregson), most of the academic content I give them is from the TUBA years. I do new music reviews, I read those, composers like those, but the articles actually in the journal have been lower quality. Interviews sometimes are interesting.

You think I’m whining, but I speak with leaders in it daily, I am the leader of an academic section that I’ve had positive global feedback. Had to seriously fight to get this even started against the president at the time that wasn’t open to any ideas or suggestions.

Can I suggest an article? Writing about how tuba players can make their music librarians happier? Maybe different “career” ideas for a tubist who likes being in an orchestra environment who doesn’t hold a principal tuba audition (keep in mind, several orchestral administrators and the director of the Grand Rapids Symphony were tubists). People are wanting relevant articles, and this could be relevant to the 100 great tubists at the last national audition in Fort Wayne that came up a little short.

@Colby Fahrenbacher I have asked for some data. To test the theory, I asked for the exact polling numbers in the last election. How many people voted, where the votes went for.

I asked for selection committee members for the 2025 ITEC. Bryan is working on getting it from Chris Vivio. I asked for 2023, and ironically the executive director doesn’t know anything about it as he hadn’t taken over.

There isn’t data. Bryan has hinted about some of the financial issues that have been fixed. I gathered this before, years ago, that the bookkeeping of the organization, or lack thereof.

For example, we didn’t even have the journals archived. Even some of the old TUBA journals that were more mailers, a call for assistance was asked for. I remember when going through every journal for some grad projects, OSU and CCM were missing some editions. It was hard enough getting some of the ones since the change when a journal wasn’t bounded and I had to request for an article. Bryan has all of those up.

Though I asked about polling information to ensure voting was blind, Bryan confirmed that the system has a list of people who voted and another list of votes that are never cross referenced.

We know Velvet Brown won. What % of the vote did she get? We know Adam Frey won the last one. Same question. Or did they win, or when looking at the results, did past executive boards meet and say “this is what people voted for, but XYZ will lead better”.

As for membership metrics, journals sometimes would mail them out. I think I received one. At the 2022 Lexington Conference, yes Colby I found out we sat right next to each other, I didn’t recognize you with the beard, Gourlay was worried about the low membership. Perantoni said it should get better with conferences. The issue is people pay to attend conferences, they don’t renew.

Colby, since you demand data to support claims, can you reach out to Bryan Doughty and Oystein to see if they can get a membership total ratio from 1999-2025 per year and have them include new members and renewing members to prove your point or prove our point. Even the last decade in the total computer cloud age…

I don’t think you will get the data because it wasn’t kept or analyzed.

@russiantuba It may be that ITEA hasn’t maintained an archive of this information, or, if they have, it hasn’t been aggregated in a way that it is easily accessible. It’d be a shame, but also entirely understandable. I always try to remember that non-profits only have the capacity to do so much, and it can be hard to justify the amount of work some of these projects require.

If the US Government/IRS audited them, they would definitely have all of these. Records and data are important for “professional” organizations. Apparently ITEA was deemed more “professional” than TUBA

russiantuba wrote: Wed May 07, 2025 6:37 pm If the US Government/IRS audited them, they would definitely have all of these. Records and data are important for “professional” organizations. Apparently ITEA was deemed more “professional” than TUBA

Well I left out a comment about how record keeping is more likely to be minimal in the early years (aka TUBA), largely because of the capacity of a fledgling organization and the focus on the mission rather than archival preservation. I’m not entirely sure that the government requires membership demographics and election results in perpetuity, nor what the time frame for maintaining those records would be if they are required. Financial records are definitely required for some length of time (but not in perpetuity I’m pretty sure), and ITEA does publish their financials in the journals.

I recommend:

BUBBIE

Brotherhood Universal of Background Brass International Enthusiasts

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: Wed May 07, 2025 12:57 pm One of the trademarks of ignorance through privilege though is assuming something to be true rather ensuring it is and broadcasting that it is. So we can pretend that T.U.B.A. Is euphonium inclusive, but we are assuming that non-members come to that conclusion naturally. Or we can ensure that it is euphonium-inclusive and broadcast that message.

Euphoniumist here. Yes, even we have enough brains to realize that our instruments are in the tuba family. No need to broadcast it. We can also realize if people are trying to turn us against each other. Sorry, not gonna happen. I'm also playing a 50-year-old Besson Eb and a 60-year-old Martin Mammoth (euphonium-shaped horns). I'm not trying to be "inclusive", just having fun making music. Sometimes, I even play those slide things.

One of my fondest memories from high school is attending the 1983 ITEC held at the University of Maryland. My then-teacher, Brian Bowman, taught at the university, was president of TUBA at the time, and organized the conference. I met prominent players from around the world. Frederick Fennell conducted us all on the steps of the US Capitol building, and the Canadian Brass gave the finale concert. Tremendous fun! Even the program booklet for the conference was shaped like a tuba. Or a euphonium.

The event was so enriching and satisfying that I decided I wanted to be a part of this field for a lifetime. I'll attend another ITEC if it returns to the genuine spirit and quality of presentations it used to have. Until then, I get more out of this forum and the Army workshop than any academic journal.

Also, IF a reason for the name change was to make it more of a professional organization with peer reviewed journals, here is something:

I asked several years ago how one would know if an article was peer reviewed, as they mention they have the process (anyone can submit an article, but if a university required peer reviewed work for tenure or promotion, it is an option). I asked, and the best answer I got was there would probably be a notation next to the article. I went back to the start, saw nothing noticeable on any part (beginning, end, title, intro) that designated an article had been peer reviewed.

The fact that it wasn’t well known and through searching (might have spent an hour flipping through the archives in the library, not going too deep), I didn’t find any.

If I wasn’t clear, I enjoy and respect the academic article process and feel it is needed. They existed under TUBA and were high quality. Also, when I joined in 2006, it was the end of the GEM series—which was present in the TUBA journal.
I thought it was cool that we got a journal exclusive piece of music. I finally played one of those before COVID (a John Stevens piece as well). I suggested a return to the guy who served as the executive director or president right before. We could get a decently known composer, or feature up and coming composers or a composition competition where the winner gets it in the GEM series.

For anyone around under the TUBA years…was this something that was a value added part?

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: Wed May 07, 2025 3:49 pm
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to state that membership for ITEA is much higher than T.U.B.A. ever was (citation needed though).

Opened mouth, and removed all doubt.... DUI hire. Dumb, uninformed id***.

Schlitzz wrote: Wed May 07, 2025 11:32 pm

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: Wed May 07, 2025 3:49 pm
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to state that membership for ITEA is much higher than T.U.B.A. ever was (citation needed though).

Opened mouth, and removed all doubt.... DUI hire. Dumb, uninformed id***.

Prove it.

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: Thu May 08, 2025 5:32 am

Schlitzz wrote: Wed May 07, 2025 11:32 pm

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: Wed May 07, 2025 3:49 pm
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to state that membership for ITEA is much higher than T.U.B.A. ever was (citation needed though).

Opened mouth, and removed all doubt.... DUI hire. Dumb, uninformed id***.

Prove it.

To my knowledge, no collegiate ensemble has been denied admittance or had a proposal declined. Simply put, the leaders said that is a huge part of membership numbers and that they likely won’t be declined. I mentioned this regarding the 2023 conference in particular when several big names were rejected but collegiate ensembles approved.

So, likely forcing membership and entry fees for several college studio drives up membership who subsequently don’t renew.

Did TUBA require collegiate ensembles to become members? In old programs I’ve done a bit of research on in the past, I would see a couple smaller groups present where the names in those groups are names, all these years later, are names I know.

Just as a general observation - from someone who's been a legal adult for a half century, it just seems to me that whole bunch of organizations start out with good intentions (simply to promote having a good time and people getting together and doing well), and quickly evolve into bureaucratic and manipulative things.

We all know about one that was established around 1775 or so and how bureaucratic and manipulative it's become...and look what happens when anyone tries to back-pedal any of the bureaucracy or the manipulation (and all of it flying in the face of its own bylaws).

Yes Bloke, you are old. But TUBA did not set out to “simply to promote having a good time and people getting together and doing well.” From the wiki article on this:

“The stated goals of the organization were and are :
- To expand performance and employment opportunities.
- To enhance the image and role of our instruments and performers.
- To explore pedagogical approaches through new teaching resources.
- To promote activity in new instrument design.
- To generate new compositions for the tuba and euphonium.
- To explore new directions in technique.
- To establish and maintain appropriate libraries of recorded and printed materials.
- To encourage tuba-euphonium workshops and conferences.
- To publish a journal.”

Only one of those items address the social aspect. Now, those may not have been the original stated goals of the organizations and some may have come later in the TUBA years, but at the very least some of them were. Expanding the repertoire and improving instrument design are probably the most prominent successes of the early TUBA years.

What you call “evolve into bureaucratic and manipulative things” I call “an organization recognizing the evolution of its community and adapting to the changing world rather than being frozen in amber.”

Or to put it another way, things that don’t change and adapt become irrelevant.

“Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket.”
― Eric Hoffer, The Temper of Our Time

“The stated goals of the organization were and are :
- To expand performance and employment opportunities.
- To enhance the image and role of our instruments and performers.
- To explore pedagogical approaches through new teaching resources.
- To promote activity in new instrument design.
- To generate new compositions for the tuba and euphonium.
- To explore new directions in technique.
- To establish and maintain appropriate libraries of recorded and printed materials.
- To encourage tuba-euphonium workshops and conferences.
- To publish a journal.”

a whole bunch of words which go into the specifics of "doing well"...but that's just fine, and good specific info.

I and countless others can thing of some additional goals (whether-or-not-stated, and - arguably - not particularly helpful) that obviously were prioritized around the time of the name change.

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: Thu May 08, 2025 9:36 am Yes Bloke, you are old.

Some people I personally know would consider this statement as an insult. I tell students I’m old all the time, but it is me insulting myself.