Why are Piston and Rotary Valves the Standard on Tuba?

[Name_Plate]

Pistons and rotors are the standard valves on tubas with out fail. They are what you expect when you buy a tuba because no alternative options exist to my knowledge. I am curious why no instrument manufacturer has made a prototype tuba with alternative valves like Hagman or Thayer valves. It seems like a market opportunity and if they could get a pro behind one it would sell. From my understanding and testing through trombones is that these valves are extremely free blowing comparatively to the standard rotors and pistons. I am guessing the reason why they are not incorporated has to do with tradition and the York style tuba/ Germanic style tuba preference of the community as a whole. Do they even make Thayer's or Hagmans valves for a tuba size bore? Is there something else I am missing?

[bloke]

The issue is scale (size).

Most any other type of (trombone, as you listed) valves would be gigantic, and would not only be very heavy, but also very slow.

Another scale (size) issue is that they would need to be spaced further apart, consuming a considerably longer portion of a tuba's tapered bore.

As some of those valves share a bearing and an air-sealing surface (a not-good idea, in my view), the amount of air leakage would be even more severe than with the trombone-bore versions (as the huge bearing surface would even larger, causing much more friction, and the tolerances required for rotation would have to be even sloppier).

Another issue is that (with one of those types of valves) a very hard coating (titanium) is blasted over a very soft metal, aluminum, that would otherwise quickly oxidize and corrode. Blasting titanium over aluminum works for a while (perhaps a few years), but (at least, in my view) is akin to concreting over peat moss...ie. Titanium bonds best to base metals which are also hard...I've actually seen the titanium coating (on those cone-shaped valves) fail (not just on the small-end bearing surface, but) right on the valve stem, which soon led to the aluminum valve stem rotting and breaking off. Luckily, I managed to thread down into the aluminum body and re-attach the stem...but (really...) that trombone's cone-shaped valve should have been discarded.

Tuba players (in my experience) are generally not the types of musicians who are into regularly completely disassembling and cleaning (4...?? 5...?? 6...??) valves (regardless of valve style).

[LargeTuba]

Wilson uses the Votaw valve in there tubas which is supposedly free-er blowing than most valves.

There is the MAW valve for piston tubas which seems to get good reviews by those who use them.

[bort2.0]

Willson uses Rotax. I had a rotary Willson tuba, and it played a lot better after I un-Rotaxed the valves.

Also, there is a MAW rotor concept that has floated around. I think some of Lee Sfofers Getzen update tubas have them. Problem with these is, Wilk's MAW valves are made by Meinlschmidt. And they've already got a lock on the rotor building industry, and are hesitant to build something else for someone else that would be all up in their space like that.

[bloke]

Willson uses Rotax. I had a rotary Willson tuba, and it played a lot better after I un-Rotaxed the valves.

What nut suggested that you have that done?

[The Big Ben]

Bring back Vienna valves!!!

[matt g]

I’m just gonna note that this topic has been around since the mid-90s at least wrt Thayer valves on a tuba.

All of the proper reasons have been given. I *think* someone might have made a Thayer valve euphonium.

[bort2.0]

Willson uses Rotax. I had a rotary Willson tuba, and it played a lot better after I un-Rotaxed the valves.

What nut suggested that you have that done?

That tuba was great after I did that work (before: really good). But for the ergonomics -- my wrist, ouch -- it had to go. If the entire valve block was about 3 inches lower, it would have been a lot better.

Speaking of other valves, there are also carbon fiber rotors, plus the old tryplen rotors.

[marccromme]

Easy to answer. Even my 5 valve piston En tuba with all valves depressed is more free blowing than my Conn
Hagman bass bone with two valves pressed and an additional length of slide extended. Same goes for my euph. Conical instruments just don't need Hartmanns, they are not stuffy like trombones with two small Bach rotors.

[Snake Charmer]

Some years ago I played a F cimbasso with 6 Hagman valves (don't know the maker, it was at Frankfurt Musikmesse), I could not make out a difference in playing to rotary cimbassi.

Thayer valves would be possible on a tuba, but the valve slide configuration would be at least challenging!

Lets wait if Jerome Wiss will build a 5 or 6 valve tuba, at least he said he wants to. He modificated the Perinet system in a very interesting way, but until now it is only available for trumpets. But at least he made some 3 valve helicons for the Guarde Republicaine (Police Band) of Paris.

BTW: I love the Berlin Valves of my F tuba!

[jtm]

BTW: I love the Berlin Valves of my F tuba!

Berlin valves as shown on this page: http://www.public.asu.edu/~jqerics/earlval.htm?

[Yorkboy]

Because those are the systems that work best on this particular application. If anything else was better, you'd already see it being used.

Simple as that.

[Snake Charmer]

Berlin valves as shown on this page: http://www.public.asu.edu/~jqerics/earlval.htm?

Berliner Pumpen klein.jpg (58.04 KiB) Viewed 1135 times

...just 5 of these! Very light, a bit clanky but I will improve the guide screws. Very similar to a rotary valve, only on two levels. And when not activated: no resistance!