Mammoth Mouthpieces

[1 Ton Tommy]

Now that the last orchestra concert of the season is done I'm focusing on learning to play the Mammoth. Aside from learning where to sit behind it, I'm learning Bb fingering and most critical of all how to get a pleasing sound out of it. A major trouble is the dreaded double buzz when I get up into the staff.

I've been playing a Miraphone C 3 and occasionally a C 4 with a shallower cup on my Eb. The C4 has a nice bark up high but I mostly use the C3. My lip is attuned to the C3 now after nearly 50 years and I like it so I haven't experimented around with other pieces. The Mammoth is another story. The shank of the C3 has been turned to fit the old Martin Eb and it doesn't fit very well in the Mammoth bit. The C4 is virginal and fits the Mammoth bit fine but my lip is not happy with it's sharper rim after playing a while, and while it has a nice bark in the upper register it tends to lose its nice resonance below the staff on the Mammoth but is OK but not great on the Eb.

When I bought the Mammoth it came with a Martin 33 mouthpiece that I don't like at all. The cup looks like a french horn or old cornet mouthpiece and it's too small and feels cramped. It also feels like it weighs about 2 lbs.

With all three I suffer double buzz on the Mammoth but not on the Eb, especially when I'm tired, like after playing gigs 4 in the past 5 days and a 3 hour rehearsal the 6th. The double buzz goes away a bit as I warm up but not completely. I don't recall the double buzz years ago when playing a big Buescher Susaphone. I no longer remember its bore or what mouthpiece I had for it.

Anyhow I'm thinking I should get another mouthpiece for playing the big bore horns. If I buy the Wilson 3400 it's like 0.73? too. Second valve slide ID is 0.715" on the Mammoth and I'm used to playing a 0.620" bore. I wonder if the big bore is the cause of the double buzz and I'll grow into it or if a different mouthpiece made for a big bore horn is the ticket. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

[donn]

I sure don't know, I'm just here to mention that the tuba is a conical instrument (categorically speaking), so valve bore size depends a lot on where the valves are, in that conical profile. Its significance is a little ambiguous.;

That Martin 33 sounds kind of interesting. You might be able to interest some forum member in a trade, where you'd received something like your C3 but with its shank intact. Whether this would resolve your buzz problem I doubt, since you say it happens witt all your mouthpieces, but there's no sense working on perfecting your playing with a C4 on that tuba. In my opinion, anyway.

[Sousaswag]

I think on something like the Mammoth, shallower is more ideal as it’ll help control the natural woofiness of a big tuba.

You might consider just buying another Miraphone mouthpiece, or, maybe consider something from the Robert Tucci line. Everything is like $100 and they come in many sizes. I like the RT-48 as a nice midsize all-rounder.

Try a bunch. We all have different rim shape preferences. Find what you like and go from there.

[martyneilan]

A Conn2/UMI 2/ Helleberg II/ FC Helleberg seems to work well on them. A medium funnel that isn't as deep as an original helleberg.

[Mary Ann]

I have always found double buzz, in a number of people, to be due to "wrong" leadpipe angle putting different pressures on the lips. It can be gotten rid of instantly by finding the right angle, by simply tipping the tuba both ways while playing the double buzz note, until the double buzz disappears. In every case, the leadpipe either needs to be angled more up to the face or more down to the face. Assuming the person has a developed embouchure and this is a problem with either a new instrument or a change in how it is held.

[dp]

This: Get a new C3 (currently called TU21) and stick with that since you're accustomed to it.

If you don't want to spring for a new TU21 shop around a while and you'll find a C3 somewhere like here or eBay.

I can't speak to old -versus- new differences. For me, trying different brands are more differences,
a different 'piece is often the bee's knees for a while and then suddenly I can't play anymore.
Thats even more maddening than buying a new 'piece and having it be a bowser from the gate.

When I started back on tuba in 1982 Tony started me on a C4 and then switched to a C3 so I know those 'pieces.
I still use them occasionally though my go to's have been the Rose Orchestra and Rose Solo for almost 40 years

[je]

I have always found double buzz, in a number of people, to be due to "wrong" leadpipe angle putting different pressures on the lips. It can be gotten rid of instantly by finding the right angle, by simply tipping the tuba both ways while playing the double buzz note, until the double buzz disappears. In every case, the leadpipe either needs to be angled more up to the face or more down to the face.

This strikes me as good advice, though my own experience over the past couple years suggests there are a couple related things to also keep in mind. Especially for smaller brass mouthpieces (euphonium and smaller), advice tends to revolve around anchoring lips against front teeth in such a way that the lips vibrate uniformly, rather than allowing different parts of one or both lips to vibrate independently. For tuba mouthpieces, anchoring the corners seems to be an additional concern.

Over the past couple years I've spent non-trivial time playing tuba, euphonium, baritone, trombone, and tenor horn, often three of them on the same day. Double buzz has plagued me at times on tuba, baritone, and trombone. In all cases, the primary solution has turned out to be shifting my embouchure upward/downward to better anchor the upper/lower lip, respectively. Oh, and to play the tenor horn as little as possible, for reasons I don't fully understand.

For the baritone, when I switched from a Yamaha 45C2 mouthpiece to a Denis Wick SM9B, I had to move my embouchure downward to anchor the lower lip. For the tuba, I noticed that leadpipe angle had minor impact on double buzz, mostly because it changed lower jaw position. But shifting my embouchure upward to better anchor the upper lip resolved the double buzz, not to mention that the lower register became much more accessible.

[sweaty]

I use a Sellmansberger Symphony on my Mammoth.

[Mary Ann]

My same horn-playing friend who went to music school in her 70s, was one of the ones who got a sudden double buzz and was flummoxed. I told her the leadpipe angle thing, she got back to me a week later and said thank you, she had changed the leadpipe angle for some ergonomic reason, and when she went back to the previous angle, the double buzz disappeared. With a horn, a trumpet, or a trombone, this is easy to do and I think most do it unconciously just finding it as they learn to play. But with euphoniums and tubas, the assumption is that the leadpipe goes straight out from the face, and it isn't that easy to change it, especially on tuba. We've gone on about it quite a bit here in the past.

[York-aholic]

Ah, but on all Martin Mammoths except the very early ones, the lead pipe has the two bits (aka articulated lead pipe) that can be adjusted to change the angle.

[1 Ton Tommy]

Thank You Maryann.

I have wondered about the problems associated with playing the Mammoth on a stand. I believe you are correct. I believe I instinctively change the angle of the mouthpeice on the Eb horn as I play it on my lap or atop my leg. I can't do that with the Mammoth on the stand.

After a couple of days rest the problem has not completely resolved itself but is much better. Now with more bit adjustments and some rest I can even get a decent sound out of the Martin 33. Maybe I sold it short.

I change the angle of the mouthpeice on trumpet as I move up and down the scale. I am particularly aware of it with the rapid interval jumps such as with Marcello's Oboe Concerto. Since I have less recent experience playing tuba, I hadn't considered how I might have to change the angle depending on pitch as I do on trumpet.

[bloke]

double buzz:
(warning...off-topic/controversial/triggering/some-will-disagree-with-the-original-premise/I-don't-care/etc...)

During various life eras, I've occasionally encountered this issue.
Typically, it has been when I've been practicing (too damn much).
The lips get tired, and - on certain pitches - I believe that (due to tired facial muscles) I allow the lips to barely touch.
I believe this occurrence dampens one of the lips' vibration frequencies, causing its vibration to slow and (via the mathematics of physics) causes one of the lips to vibrate at the frequency an octave lower...

It ONLY happens to me with frequencies whereby the pitch an octave lower can be played with the same valve combination...
Does it happen to anyone whereby the frequency - an octave lower - can NOT be played with the same valve combination?

Martin Mammoth:
- fun to play
- I seem to enjoy playing the 3-valve top-action one-piece-bell versions the most (??)
- they sound great with most any pretty-good mouthpiece

[1 Ton Tommy]

I think Bloke has a point here about octaves. I had not experienced the double buzz below bottom line G. That's where it starts. Open F below it is not a problem. As I said yesterday, the problem has cleared up some with a few days rest. And changing the bit angle also helped. So I think it's several factors conspiring together.

I have only very occasionally had the double buzz problem on the Eb horn. Though from time to time I also had it happen on trumpet. Perhaps it was a case of "the tireds." On trumpet I think it wasn't the mouthpiece because I've played the same Bach 1-1/2C for 15 years, even for screaming high Bach parts. I used that mouthpiece even on a Benge piccolo trumpet. I have used a 1X though to front a noisy jazz band.

But playing too much trumpet causes other problems besides double buzz. In practice, when my trumpet lip gets tired I switch to tuba for a massage. Except for a couple of casual gigs it's been all tuba all the time for the past six months.