French Horns for Quintet (General Recommendations from Tuba Players)

[Worth]

As a member of this forum, I feel more comfortable asking this question here on TubaForum. I respect the knowledge and experience of you all.

I enjoy the variety of being a multi-instrumentalist. I know, jack of all trades, master of none.....

With my recent venture into F Mellophone and the fact that our Quintet has a Horn player who is also a Tuba player (and the somewhat recent sales of two of my Euphoniums) I am considering getting a double horn. We both enjoy the variety and the Horn parts are a blast to play. With a fluent TC mind, this is something I have always wanted to do. The cumbersome intonation of the wild natured F mellophone can be tamed with alternate fingerings and lipping, but I would rather spend the time and effort with a "real" French Horn.

My budget is $1500. max. Options are many, to include used US vs new Chinese. I would love to score a used Conn 8D as the market value of some of these has been lower due to the popularity of Geyer wrap horns. The only way I could touch a Geyer wrap horn would be Chinese. I have no objections to that, but my question is which might be best suited to quintet and be more predictable regarding intonation and outcome?

[Mary Ann]

Look for Conn, Holton, Yamaha used in your price range. There are others but they won't be in your budget. Do not buy anything unless you have a good player to test it for you and there is a return policy. There is a LOT of junk out there. I have no idea how good the horns at Mack Brass are; but given his return policy it might be worth a try if you end up wanting to try Chinese.
PS: I am a horn player.

[iiipopes]

Look for Conn, Holton, Yamaha used in your price range. There are others but they won't be in your budget. Do not buy anything unless you have a good player to test it for you and there is a return policy. There is a LOT of junk out there. I have no idea how good the horns at Mack Brass are; but given his return policy it might be worth a try if you end up wanting to try Chinese.
PS: I am a horn player.

What Mary Ann said. I played horn for one year in college, just long enough to figure out that it wasn't for me and when it was over I ran screaming back to the tuba trenches.

I have close friends who play Yamaha. They are superlative horns. In the "golden age" of Conn, as you observed, nothing was better than a 8D. But that isn't the end of the story. What is your repertoire and tonal ideal? It it an over-simplification to say that you use a Geyer for band and a Kruspe for orchestra, even though there are distinct differences between the two wraps and accompanying bell architecture.

Read this article: https://hornreviews.com/kruspe-geyer-ho ... ifference/

Bump up your budget. Unlike Mary Ann, I do not believe you will get a good quality horn, even from a used reputable brand and dealer, for less than $2500, $2000 minimum. Remember that horns do not have water keys. This, combined with the same length of tubing as an F tuba all coiled tightly, lends itself to more places for water to collect and not completely clear, making french horns more susceptible to corrosion and red rot than other brass instruments. More than one person has bought a used horn that looked good on the outside that was a wreck internally.

And remember that most of the tone is in your embouchure, fundamentally different in mouthpiece placement than most other brass instruments, and your right hand placement. Traditional french horn embouchure is 2/3 of the mouthpiece on the upper lip and 1/3 on the lower lip, blowing into the funnel of the mouthpiece, instead of roughly half-and-half with a tuba mouthpiece blowing straight down the throat. And for the right hand, my directors, to get novices to learn the basics, instructed new french horn players, even if experienced in brass otherwise, as I was, to hold your right hand as if you are holding an uncooked egg, use your knuckles to find the spot on the bell that resonates with the note, and use your wrist to get the desired shading. I will leave the debate of the "Farkas" flat chin versus the "Schuller" more rounded chin to others: https://www.hornmatters.com/2010/09/hor ... -position/ .

Finally, what is the tonal ideal of your quintet: homogenous sound from top to bottom to bring out ensemble, or each horn having a contrasting timbre to bring out counterpoint?

[ParLawGod]

Although I'm not a horn player (I only dabble), you might also want to check out the Conn 11D as well. My wife is a hornist, and much prefers it over the 8D (she bought hers from one of the Milwaukee Symphony Orchestra hornists, who hand-picked it at the Conn factory).

I use a Conn 6D myself teaching middle school lessons, and I see these around for cheap all the time. Might not be a bad idea to get a 6D for a steal, then determine what you like and don't like about it (it would at least provide some direction on what you'd be looking for in an upgrade).

[Worth]

Great feedback, this is exactly what I am looking for. Thank you also to those who have PMd as well with ideas and sources. Mary Ann said it, there is a lot of junk out there, definitely. My F Mellophone was a dangerous gateway drug to the world of horn. Like Tuba, so many designs, so little time. If I go Chinese I would most likely look Bloke's way toward a JP/Rath horn than a Jinbao for a bit extra gelt. I understand the difference with vintage Elkhart vs Abilene and Eastlake Conns but have not considered or looked at the 11D. I also realize a Vintage Conn in nice condition is out of my price range (and beyond my current level of appreciation). Although adding 1K to my max would open other options, unfortunately that is not in the cards. The tonal concept of our quintet, although homogeneous when we choose to be, trends towards contrasting timbres so most any decent quality horn would be welcome if played musically, accurately, and in tune. I am open to any major accepted wrap style, and am now tracking what appears to be a very nice Eastlake 8D on EBay right now but it may go beyond my max when all is said and done.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Conn-8D-Silver ... %7Ciid%3A1

I'll wait and see where this winds up in a day or so, keep up the research and go from there. Thanks to all!

[Mary Ann]

Honestly I think what matters most for a first instrument is that it is of good quality, and tonal characteristics really are not much of a factor. You sound like you on any instrument (that's not news, is it?) and finding one that experts say is very playable should be on top of your list. Later, when you start having some pickiness about what tone you want to have, you can choose a more expensive instrument that helps you achieve that tone. I had three high quality horns at the same time while I was making my "higher level choice:" an old Reynolds Contempora that slotted really well but which required a gorilla sized hand to operate the valves; a Yamaha 862 that had a fine reputation but which I found not in the slightest exciting and which mechanically did not feel solid to me; and a Schmid double, which was easy to play and ergonomically perfect. I got the Schmid and improved it drastically a couple years later with a Lawson ambronze bell. They were cheaper back then. Along the way I tried an Alex 200 that was not in tune with itself, and an 8D that was sharp and could not be brought down to pitch. Holtons never turned me on although I did play a Merker once that was acceptable. I've tooted on a Lewis and a Paxman that I loved, but they weren't around when I was shopping. Out in the hall, there is way less difference than up close, anyway. You want it to be as playable as possible and sound like a horn.

I'd look seriously at a good 6D if you can find one....great place to start.

[tclements]

Look into the Wessex. They are making pretty good instruments at an affordable price. If you go that route, message me privately.

[iiipopes]

Look into the Wessex. They are making pretty good instruments at an affordable price. If you go that route, message me privately.

I didn't know Wessex had a line of french horns. Hmmm. This might be an option. I revise my statements accordingly. I know many on the forum are pleased with their tubas, and I am pleased with my bell-front American hybrid bari-euph.

[Stauff]

If you're looking for an 8D type horn (large, Kruspe, nickel, etc.) one to keep in mind is a King Eroica double. There's one ugly listing on ebay right now for around $650 and another clean one over $2K. The most recent sold one on eBay that was a great buy went for $849 with a new Gator case. These horns are mostly from the 1960's & 1970's (model #1160 for early ones, model #2270 for later models). The horn specialty shops have caught on to this instrument and command premium prices for them - one Canadian Brass horn player had one as his performance instrument. The general public has not yet caught on to this gem. Chuck Ward was the main guy behind the improvements that took place for the model 2270, and he has his own shop now in Chardon, Ohio. If you're patient, and keep a close eye on the eBay and Reverb listings, you could probably find a nice Eroica well within your budget!
Happy hunting!

[bloke]

My strong suspicion is that the Eastlake 8D horns have always been built with "King Eroica" bells.
> The Eastlake 8D bells IN NO DETAILED WAYS THAT I SEE resemble the previous 8D bells (whether Indiana or Texas 8D bells).
> King (Eastlake) obviously ALREADY HAD tooling for Eroica bells.
> The Eroica bell, ALREADY, was a large-throated nickel-silver bell.
> The Eastlake 8D horns (though selected ones are "good") don't sound like the previous 8D horns, whether carefully-assembled Indiana instruments, or hastily-assembled Texas instruments.

There are other issues, but I'll keep those to myself.

[Worth]

Thanks to all here, the search is coming into focus with some much appreciated input. Due to my hard limit of $1,500 a decent 8D is out of the question, any point of manufacture, as are most other top shelf contenders. I had no idea about the King Eroica as an option and the suggestion regarding a 6D is spot on if I go Conn. Bloke has a beautiful demo JP/Rath within reach, but I am currently torn with so many other used options out there. Wessex and Mack are other excellent options as well, although if I go Asian, it will be the JP/Rath. It is seriously mind blowing, but a fun search and I appreciate the help and advice as I learn

[ParLawGod]

I've owned a number of JP Rath trombones (as well as a JP Sterling baritone, which I bought from bloke). All have been nice quality and play well! Slot nicely, in tune, no valve/slide issues, and solid tone. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another.

[jtm]

Thanks to all here, the search is coming into focus with some much appreciated input. ... It is seriously mind blowing, but a fun search and I appreciate the help and advice as I learn

This is just what I thought when I started shopping for a used tuba two years ago. So many interesting choices!
Have fun.

[Doc]

A good used King or Conn could be a great purchase if the price is right, but if the quality of JP and Wessex horns are on par with their tubas, these are a must-test option also. Like others have stated, my experience owning and testing their tubas has been all positive.

***A thought from left field...***
How about alto trombone instead? Not kidding. For years, I played in a sextet - 2 tpts, 3 bones (alto, tenor, bass), and tuba. It helped, of course, that the alto bone was the principal tbone of the symphony, but I never once yearned for a french horn or felt the group was lacking in any way.

Good luck on the search, and please let us know how it works out!

[ParLawGod]

How about alto trombone instead? Not kidding. For years, I played in a sextet - 2 tpts, 3 bones (alto, tenor, bass), and tuba. It helped, of course, that the alto bone was the principal tbone of the symphony, but I never once yearned for a french horn or felt the group was lacking in any way.

Reminds me of a time when I pulled out an F alto horn (trumpet fingerings) to play in a quintet...emergency situation of course. Had a blast!!! Different type of sound, but that's not always a bad thing. There are groups that subsitute bass trombone for tuba (blasphemy, I know...), so a substitution is not out of reason IMO.

[Doc]

How about alto trombone instead? Not kidding. For years, I played in a sextet - 2 tpts, 3 bones (alto, tenor, bass), and tuba. It helped, of course, that the alto bone was the principal tbone of the symphony, but I never once yearned for a french horn or felt the group was lacking in any way.

Reminds me of a time when I pulled out an F alto horn (trumpet fingerings) to play in a quintet...emergency situation of course. Had a blast!!! Different type of sound, but that's not always a bad thing. There are groups that subsitute bass trombone for tuba (blasphemy, I know...), so a substitution is not out of reason IMO.

Sometimes a substitution seems to fit the music better than standard instrumentation, or it can take the music in a slightly different direction.

Doc (admittedly incredibly biased when it comes to bass bone instead of tuba. )

[hbcrandy]

I studied both tuba and horn privately with Philadelphia Orchestra musicians and have played both in professional situations. I also, for 40 years, have operated a French horn pro shop. I cut my horn teeth on the Conn 8D, the then, standard Philadelphia horn during the Mason Jones era. I now play a nickel Kruspe from the early part of the 20th century. I am somewhat biased toward the Kruspe style horn and have found that style of horn a good, all-purpose instrument.

The differences I find between the Geyer/Knopf style of horn and the Kruspe are due to the bell throat size and the rate of taper. The Kruspe, partially due to large bell throat and the great rate of taper, gives the player a wider slot in which to place any given note. The traditional Geyer/Knopf horn uses a smaller bell throat and a more gradual taper, thereby, from my observations over the years, has tighter slots in which to place a note. It seems to me that the Geyer/Knopf style horn tells the player where the note goes. The Kruspe asks the player where he or she wants the note to go. So, if you get a Geyer/Knopf whose taper is well optimized, the Geyer/Knopf horn will seem a more secure horn than the Kruspe style. However, with either style instrument, your ear needs to be very well trained. If you hear a pitch that is not directly where the tightly slotted horn "wants it", you will miss the note completely. However, If the taper is not well thought out by the horn's designer, you may wind up with a horn whose open partials are not in tune relative to other properly placed partials on the instrument and suffer "built-in" intonation problems that could be corrected on a horn with a wider slot.

On the Kruspe style instrument, if you hear a pitch that is within the wider slot but not right on target, a note will come out of the horn but with bad intonation. So, from an accuracy point of view, there are advantages and disadvantages to both styles.

The other consideration is "color" of the sound produced. The Geyer/Knopf sound is a "brighter" sound with more upper harmonics. To me, in the hands of some players, the sound of a Geyer/Knopf horn approaches the sound of a trombone. The Kruspe style horn has a "darker" sound with more emphasis on fundamental. The Kruspe style horn's sound, in the hands of a skillful player, has a sound that fills a concert hall and envelopes the audience. It has a center but a rich aura around that center. But, in spite of all of this minutia, It is the player that determines the sound of the horn.

Both instrument styles will work in a brass quintet. The deciding factor is what you prefer.

[Worth]

Again the knowledge here is tremendous, thanks Randy very much for your additional and valuable insight. Reading your comments, I am stoked about this year's early Christmas present!

I am very excited to have located a Selmer Model 77 from 1979-1980. As noted in the "Horn Call" of 1978, Gardner, Gary. "The Selmer Double Horn, No. 77." 68-70. In this review and on-the-job analysis of Selmer's new horn, Gardner praises every aspect, proclaiming it to be "one of the world's finest orchestral horns available." Gardner, Gary. "The Selmer Double Horn, No. 77." 68-70.

This looks to be a nicely restored beauty. Notes from the listing from The Silver and Brass Music Shop in Carson City NV.

This is a (serial number 1764) Selmer Double French Horn. It is a Selmer model 77, which is nearly identical to the Bach model 197 "Stradivarius" double horn. Both of these models were built in the Bach factory by the same craftsmen who built the famous Bach trumpets and trombones. It was originally built as a direct rival to the Conn 8D, Holton 179 and King Eroica, so at the time Selmer considered it to be a professional level symphonic double french horn. At the time it sold for the same price as a King Eroica, a Conn 8D or a Holton 179. Unfortunately Selmer introduced this model in 1979, which wasn't exactly a booster year for double french horn sales in the United States. They only built this model for a couple of years, and then it was discontinued. Nobody these days remembers that this horn was ever built, so it is very inexpensive as a result. This instrument is in good condition, and plays very well. The valves move well with good compression and the slides all move of course.

As for the aesthetic condition of this horn, there are a few small dings and pings as well as light etching and scratching throughout the entire instrument. There are some scars on the bell flare from dent work. The bell engraving reads: “THE/ SELMER/ COMPANY/ / U.S.A.”

The minor imperfections are visible in the pictures, and none of them affect the playability of the horn. This instrument has been professionally cleaned in our shop, and repaired to full playability. This horn is not lacquered; therefore fingerprints should be wiped off after use if the player wishes for the horn to stay as shiny as it is now; if they are not wiped off then the horn will develop a lovely patina. This instrument comes with a somewhat worn hardshell case, and a mouthpiece in good condition for play-testing purposes.

How the horn plays: Full, warm and mellow sound with a smooth, sonorous and even tone. The horn is responsive and open, playing with good flexibility and accuracy. All registers of the horn speak very well and play fluidly. The F and Bb side timbre and intonation match well.



The journey begins

[hbcrandy]

Worth:

Make very sure their is a trial period with a money-back guarantee before you commit to purchasing this horn. I do not know who Mr. Gardner is that posted the review of the Selmer 77 horn in the 1978 "Horn Call". But, all due respect to Mr. Gardner, in 40 years of selling, customizing and repairing horns for clients from many of the major orchestras in the United States , I know of NO professional performers that play the Selmer 77.

Of the several I have tested over the years, NONE have impressed me. I have found the Selmer horn uncentered and ""stuffy" with bad intonation relative to its own open partials. The overall sound lacks substance and carrying power. Bach makes GREAT trumpets and trombones. They were never famous for their horns. Your best bet for a used horn in your price range would be a Holton Farkas or an older Yamaha.

Make very sure that you have a trial period before purchase and, during the trial, take it to a professional horn player. Have them test the horn for performance characteristics and mechanical stability. This is extremely important for the Holton because the early Holton Farkas models had valves that wore out rapidly and leaked. The valves should also be tested for side-to-side and up-and-down play. This is the sign of a wearing valve. Valve compression can be tested by pulling the first valve F side tuning slide out as far as it will go without coming out of its outer slides. Holding the horn with the mouthpiece receiver to your ear and left hand on the uncompressed valve levers, without depressing the first valve lever, quickly push in the first valve F slide all of the way in. You should hear a hiss. When the hiss begins, count off 3 seconds and depress the first valve finger lever. You should hear a "pop". This was the famous horn designer and builder, Walter Lawson's test for good valve compression. The first valve is used because it is the most frequently engaged of all of the valves when playing and will be the one to get the most wear. If the hiss and pop are weak or non-existent, the horn either needs or will soon need a valve plating and re-build which is very expensive and time consuming. It may cost you more than you paid for the horn.

If you want to talk to me with more questions and recommendations, please call me (no text messages, please) at 443-977-7381. I am in Baltimore, Maryland on the east coast of the United States in the Eastern time zone. I have no financial stake in selling you a horn because I am retiring as of December 23, 2020 and closing my horn shop. I just want to see you get a good horn at a fair price.

[Worth]

If you want to talk to me with more questions and recommendations, please call me. I have no financial stake in selling you a horn because I am retiring as of December 23, 2020 and closing my horn shop. I just want to see you get a good horn at a fair price.

I have no misconceptions about the Selmer 77 being anything other than an entry-level double horn for me to cut my teeth on. I realize there will be handicaps and issues relative to the design and I will work my ass off and learn what I should be more appreciative of if, and when, I make it to that time to step-up. The ship has sailed and it is on its way to me. The Yamaha and the Holton (and Chinese options) really do not excite me, and in my price range, maybe (or surely) because of that I will be making my life more difficult, who knows. I like that it is American made, and unique and beautiful. I will take it through the paces you describe and report back as it arrives and I tune it to itself. Thanks for your generous offer and kind consideration, that is really nice and something that keeps me around this forum!