Orchestral Tuba

[tobysima`]

I'm pretty sure I asked this a while ago, but I'm still trying to refine my question so I can get an answer that I am looking for.

What are the important models of tuba within orchestral tuba playing? (For example, the 2 CSO Yorks and the Sander C tubas that the BrassandPipes blog says were used to premier Fanfare of Common Man, and Dvorak 9)

[matt g]

Some great recordings with all kinds of different tubas. The response to this question is fairly vast.

[tobysima`]

Some great recordings with all kinds of different tubas. The response to this question is fairly vast.

Fair enough. Which are the most influential? The ones that the sound makes other people want to play the same tuba?

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[matt g]

Some great recordings with all kinds of different tubas. The response to this question is fairly vast.

Fair enough. Which are the most influential? The ones that the sound makes other people want to play the same tuba?

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Alexander tubas were a huge deal for quite a while.

[Three Valves]

... I'm still trying to refine my question so I can get an answer that I am looking for.

You could give us the answer you are looking for and we can tell you how wrong you are!!

I get the gist of what you are asking however. I imagine Deck and Porkorny have made the largest modern era contributions but I'd like to also think there are some I've overlooked. Not every major orchestra has made famous recordings we can refer to...

[bloke]

I don't personally believe that tubas need to imitate the sound of a string bass in an orchestra (such as the American 6/4 types tend to do, and were originally designed to do), since every orchestra features a string bass section.

I also don't really believe that the super-wide-sounding tubas are the very best choice for being the "contrabass" of the brass section in a symphony orchestra. (Watch a good trombone section's eyes light up when a good tuba player shows up with a good F tuba.)

I don't believe that factory-shortening those huge 6/4 things to C does anything to help them.

The 6/4 york-like thing has been (so far) a *4-decades fad. It seems to be here to stay - at least - to some extent...though I've actually witnessed a few prominent younger (middle-aged) "6/4-since-day-1" players begin to see the light, and realize that less is often more (more audible resonance, and a more identifiable-as-tuba resonance).
_____________________________
*though, yes, Holton pulled it's 6/4 body and bell molds back off the shelf - in the 1960's - and configured a companion valveset to construct a "reasonable facsimile" of Mr. Jacobs' York (though larger), so that they could claim - in an ad - that the CSO principals all owned a Holton instrument. ...I strongly suspect that Holton wasn't particularly happy when people ordered (mostly: the B-flat versions of) them...as they were always priced - adjusted for inflation - as high as the Yamaha 826 is priced, today...and we all know good-and-well that Mr. Herseth didn't use any Holton trumpets, though - obviously - he was given at least one...and I also tend to wonder how often that single B-flat horn was pulled out and played, in the orchestra.

[tobysima`]

I don't personally believe that tubas need to imitate the sound of a string bass in an orchestra (such as the American 6/4 types tend to do, and were originally designed to do), since every orchestra features a string bass section.

I also don't really believe that the super-wide-sounding tubas are the very best choice for being the "contrabass" of the brass section in a symphony orchestra. (Watch a good trombone section's eyes light up when a good tuba player shows up with a good F tuba.)

I don't believe that factory-shortening those huge 6/4 things to C does anything to help them.

The 6/4 york-like thing has been (so far) a *4-decades fad. It seems to be here to stay - at least - to some extent...though I've actually witnessed a few prominent younger (middle-aged) "6/4-since-day-1" players begin to see the light, and realize that less is often more (more audible resonance, and a more identifiable-as-tuba resonance).
_____________________________
*though, yes, Holton pulled it's 6/4 body and bell molds back off the shelf - in the 1960's - and configured a companion valveset to construct a "reasonable facsimile" of Mr. Jacobs' York (though larger), so that they could claim - in an ad - that the CSO principals all owned a Holton instrument. ...I strongly suspect that Holton wasn't particularly happy when people ordered (mostly: the B-flat versions of) them...as they were always priced - adjusted for inflation - as high as the Yamaha 826 is priced, today...and we all know good-and-well that Mr. Herseth didn't use any Holton trumpets, though - obviously - he was given at least one...and I also tend to wonder how often that single B-flat horn was pulled out and played, in the orchestra.

So stuff like the 186 and the Kaiser tubas are better suited for the ideal orchestral sound? Kind of like what the Sander was meant to do?

[tobysima`]

... I'm still trying to refine my question so I can get an answer that I am looking for.

You could give us the answer you are looking for and we can tell you how wrong you are!!

I get the gist of what you are asking however. I imagine Deck and Porkorny have made the largest modern era contributions but I'd like to also think there are some I've overlooked. Not every major orchestra has made famous recordings we can refer to...

I definitely think as popular as the York sound is, it doesn't offer the best blend with the other brass, especially the trombones.

[KingTuba1241X]

So stuff like the 186 and the Kaiser tubas are better suited for the ideal orchestral sound?

Yes. Large(er) German style rotary horns punch through the mix of orchestras nicely and blend better with the trombones. Have you seen some of Perry Hoogendijk's videos on YouTube? You just hear more TUBA versus when the player is using a York Style horn. It's all about what sound you're aiming for, neither are a bad thing.

[tobysima`]

So stuff like the 186 and the Kaiser tubas are better suited for the ideal orchestral sound?

Yes. Large(er) German style rotary horns punch through the mix of orchestras nicely and blend better with the trombones. Have you seen some of Perry Hoogendijk's videos on YouTube? You just hear more TUBA versus when the player is using a York Style horn. It's all about what sound you're aiming for, neither are a bad thing.

Yeah. I'm listening to his orchestra play Bruckner 9, and the tuba is incredible.

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[Yorkboy]

... I'm still trying to refine my question so I can get an answer that I am looking for.

You could give us the answer you are looking for and we can tell you how wrong you are!!

I get the gist of what you are asking however. I imagine Deck and Porkorny have made the largest modern era contributions but I'd like to also think there are some I've overlooked. Not every major orchestra has made famous recordings we can refer to...

I definitely think as popular as the York sound is, it doesn't offer the best blend with the other brass, especially the trombones.

I assume you are referring to the 6/4 York tuba(s). My personal opinion is that I think a skilled player can make any tuba blend (or not blend) as he sees fit. The best race car in the world will not win unless it’s operated by a driver who knows what he’s doing.

With that said, the more I look at it, the more resemblance I see in the York 700 series (“tall bell”) tubas and similar pitched German instruments...if you put a rotary set on that bugle, it’d be hard to tell it wasn’t European.....?

[Three Valves]

...except for the bell flare.

[KingTuba1241X]

The best race car in the world will not win unless it’s operated by a driver who knows what he’s doing.

And the best Racecar driver in the world behind a gutless slug will only be able to do so much, take for instance.. Mario Andretti in a Ford Pinto with an exploding gas tank . IMO it's at least 75% equipment up to a certain point then 50/50. I like the tall bell York though, even though the bell flare is too wide.

[Yorkboy]

The best race car in the world will not win unless it’s operated by a driver who knows what he’s doing.

And the best Racecar driver in the world behind a gutless slug will only be able to do so much, take for instance.. Mario Andretti in a Ford Pinto with an exploding gas tank . IMO it's at least 75% equipment up to a certain point then 50/50. I like the tall bell York though, even though the bell flare is too wide.

Wow, I didn’t think was I said was so controversial- I guess anything can be argued against.

Players in the “old days” made some pretty damn good music on instruments we wouldn’t think of as being state-of-the-art today - the rotary valve Conn once owned by Fred Geib comes to mind.

BTW, that bell flare is 18.5”, smaller than a King 1241, same size as a newer 186.

[KingTuba1241X]

The best race car in the world will not win unless it’s operated by a driver who knows what he’s doing.

And the best Racecar driver in the world behind a gutless slug will only be able to do so much, take for instance.. Mario Andretti in a Ford Pinto with an exploding gas tank . IMO it's at least 75% equipment up to a certain point then 50/50. I like the tall bell York though, even though the bell flare is too wide.

Wow, I didn’t think was I said was so controversial- I guess anything can be argued against.

BTW, that bell flare is 18.5”, smaller than a King 1241, same size as a newer 186.

Didn't mean for it to come off controversial, I just think equipment is a huge part of the game otherwise all the top pros in the world would only own 1 horn and do everything with it (at least in my judgement). BTW, the newer 186 has a 17.7'' bell.

[Yorkboy]

Yes, my bad you are correct about the Mirafone I was thinking of the VMI 3301.....

[KingTuba1241X]

Yes, my bad you are correct about the Mirafone I was thinking of the VMI 3301.....

I actually think that 18.5'' bell would be pretty awesome though, don't get me wrong. It's when you start getting above 19'' that things start to pancake up and woof too much (even on a rotary). If Bobo can make a 184 with a (15.5 ish'' bell)? penetrate the mics on the Planet recordings that well, maybe bigger isn't always best?

[Three Valves]

And by flare, I don’t mean just the bell diameter, but perhaps the ratio between the throat and the diameter.

Or how suddenly or gradually it flares out.

[bloke]

This thread is delving into nerdy minutia, but (on the nerdy minutia topic) I’m pretty sure that any model 184 tuba that gentleman recorded with featured a bell diameter of only about 360mm…(less than 14-1/4 inches).

Sonically, my observation has been that a bell throat diameter offers a much more profound effect on “focus” than does the width of (whether or not one exists) a flattened-out bell edge. A tuba that I just finished putting together sports a 19” bell, but - sonically - can be pretty “punchy”, when pushed...as the bell throat size is conservative. Compared to a 15” bell tuba that I recently sold (Chinese copy of a Cerveny Arion Bb), the sonic characteristics are quite similar, as their throat sizes are pretty close to the same.

[tobysima`]

This thread is delving into nerdy minutia, but (on the nerdy minutia topic) I’m pretty sure that any model 184 tuba that gentleman recorded with featured a bell diameter of only about 360mm…(less than 14-1/4 inches).

I thought Bobo eventually got a bigger bell on his 184... at least that's what his site says!

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