U.K. Brass Band Budget and Light EEb - Suggestions Please

[2nd tenor]

Hello All.

I’m a U.K. based Tuba player in a Brass Band, my primary instrument these days is the Eb Bass. I learnt to play Tuba and Tenor Trombone at School and then took a few decades off of playing. In circa 2007 I returned to brass playing on a Trombone (2nd Tenor) and after some years moved back to Tuba - I love them both but Tuba is what I’m best at.

I’d like to pick your collective brains please.

In Brass Band rehearsals I almost always play a Sovereign Eb Bass that belongs to my Band. The Sovereign is a four valve compensating Tuba made by Besson, it’s a lovely playing and sounding instrument. For independence and pleasure and practice at home I have my own three valve non-compensating Besson Regent Eb Bass. The ‘little’ Regent is an easy blow and it sounds lovely too, I could happily play it indefinitely. The Sovereign is obviously the better instrument but it’s not light and a bit more of a blow, hence I only play it when I need to use the ‘big boy’. I haven’t really been limited by three valves and non-compensating hasn’t been an issue either. However I occasionally miss the fourth valve for those lower notes so I want to consider my personal use options. As I get older I’m conscious of weight and air management, having something suitable for my more ‘senior’ years is my priority.

So, an upgrade from the Regent might be advantageous to me but I want to keep near to light and compact. My budget, including repairs, is notionally limited to £1000 ($1400?). Ideally I’ll spend a fraction of that budget, but I can afford to spend a bit more. Obviously I’m looking towards something that’s a few decades old, but second-hand can be good and Tubas often ‘live’ for a very long time.

So some questions BUT with a bias towards being in the U.K. and U.K. type Brass Band Eb Tubas:
1) What was made that has a small bell and four valves?
2) Of that list what’s best avoided and what’s worth looking for?
3) Where might one usefully look to buy such a Bass?
4) Am I seeking to do the impossible and/or likely to end up with expensive to restore junk?

I’d welcome your thoughts.

Edit. The old Besson Regent 677, has a 12” bell, is 29&1/2“ long and is roughly 11lb with mouthpiece fitted. My Band’s Sovereign has a 19” Bell, is 35” long and is roughly 19lb with mouthpiece fitted - the Sovereign’s awkward extra bulk makes its extra weight quite noticeably less manageable.

[LargeTuba]

I have a wessex champion Eb for sale, I know it's probably not exactly what your looking for, but it's a solid compensating Eb tuba.

[bloke]

The single most significant factor which adds weight to tubas is a fourth valve.
Perhaps, a several-inches larger diameter bell flare and a 5th valve (or compensating system) add something fairly close to that much more weight yet again.

The old 15" bell B&H Imperial/Besson tubas - which are THREE-VALVE COMPENSATING...and found in excellent condition - might be your best compromise.

[prairieboy1]

The single most significant factor which adds weight to tubas is a fourth valve.
Perhaps, a several-inches larger diameter bell flare and a 5th valve (or compensating system) add something fairly close to that much more weight yet again.

The old 15" bell B&H Imperial/Besson tubas - which are THREE-VALVE COMPENSATING...and found in excellent condition - might be your best compromise.

Quoted for Truth!

[bloke]

This is top action, satin silver, handsome, includes a hard case, plays up to A=440, accepts an old-school English shank mouthpiece, and only weighs 11 pounds with a mouthpiece inserted.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1994

[2nd tenor]

The single most significant factor which adds weight to tubas is a fourth valve.
Perhaps, a several-inches larger diameter bell flare and a 5th valve (or compensating system) add something fairly close to that much more weight yet again.

The old 15" bell B&H Imperial/Besson tubas - which are THREE-VALVE COMPENSATING...and found in excellent condition - might be your best compromise.

Thank you for your expert view. What you’ve said pretty much confirms my thoughts. The suggested compromise would be a step forward and has crossed my mind in the past; I love my Regent but if I could go back in time then I’d purchase that alternative instead. For some reason three valve compensating Tubas aren’t sough after here. I knew an old ex-military Bandsman who thought that his three valve compensating Eb Tuba was perfection, and for the music he played it might well have been. These days composers write with the assumption that the Eb Bass will have four valves and though I rarely need it the added range is my main driver, but (low) weight and bulk is important to me too. Compromises ...

Several years ago I played with a different Brass Band - moved back onto Bass there - and experienced playing two different Eb’s with them. First up was an old Eb Besson New Standard with a small bell and four compensating valves which was built in high pitch and converted to low pitch: spacers added to the valve slides and a simple 360 degree loop added to the input side of the main tuning slide. Later I moved from the New Standard and onto a Sovereign with that Band. I found the Sovereign bulkier and heavier than the New Standard, but the Sovereign did sound better and in comparison the NS was slightly stuffy. I’ve always wondered about the pitch conversion’s impact on the NS’s relative stuffiness and thought the particular tuning slide modification to be significantly flawed - it’s a pragmatic and commonly used modification but IMHO not an ideal one.

This is top action, satin silver, handsome, includes a hard case, plays up to A=440, accepts an old-school English shank mouthpiece, and only weighs 11 pounds with a mouthpiece inserted.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1994

That looks a lot like a Besson Regent Mark one Eb Tuba, I have the Mark two model. The Mark two model has the lead pipe going directly into the valve block and the tuning slide directly after the valve block whereas the Mark one has the lead pipe going into the tuning slide which is directly before the valve block. The three valve Imperials mentioned above are better instruments but I’d (also) recommend either of those Regents to any amateur player in a community type Band ‘cause they’re light, simple and effective. As they say: “it ain’t what you’ve got that matters it’s what you do with it”. However, having given that recommendation, etc., I’m still wondering about a step-up to something a little better.

Many thanks for your excellent posts.

[2nd tenor]

I have a wessex champion Eb for sale, I know it's probably not exactly what your looking for, but it's a solid compensating Eb tuba.

Thanks for the suggestion. There’s a lot of positive comments about the Wessex instruments and some very able people use them. I’m looking for something physically smaller than a Champion and, having sat next to a Wessex owner (a capable player who shared their thoughts with me) I have some doubts about a one being right for me. I wish you well with your sale.

[marccromme]

Another quite OK option is the for valve Yamaha YEB 321 which can frequently be found cheap and used

[2nd tenor]

Another quite OK option is the for valve Yamaha YEB 321 which can frequently be found cheap and used

That’s a good suggestion, thank you. Here in the U.K. the YEB321’s are rare and when available they seem to command a premium - generally all second hand Yamaha Brass is expensive here. Though some three valve instruments are in use my estimation is that here in the U.K. roughly 90% of Eb Tubas in regular adult use are 3+1 compensating Instruments. New none compensating instruments are restricted to the ‘youth’ lines which IMHO is a shame, I love my own three valve non-comp instrument and in the right hands these simple Tubas can play really well.

The few reports that I’ve read of the YEB321’s are positive. I know just one person who owns one, it’s some years since I last met him but his ambition was to play it for forever - so so good that he’s never ever going to part with it. He’s an Orchestral type player and should but OK in a Wind Band too. In Brass Bands (where 90% of the Bass players are) a four valve instrument would almost certainly be expected to be compensating ... but I’d try my luck and this would be a second instrument after my Band’s 3+1.

Edit. Whilst looking for videos of the Bach Cello Suites being played on Tuba I came across this older German player (pensioner) using an Eb four valve Yamaha, the YEB 321, if I could play as well as him I’d be very pleased. The videos are quite a few years old, I hope that that guy is still playing.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ut4owZ6EHY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=neiTiiFp0bM
Maybe I’m wrong but I think the four valve Eb’s to be pretty versatile ... and I only occasionally miss a fourth valve on my Three valve Regent.

[UncleBeer]

The Wessex Bombino sounds like what you're looking for. Although more expensive than what you intend to spend, perhaps you can find a used one in the UK?

[2nd tenor]

The Wessex Bombino sounds like what you're looking for. Although more expensive than what you intend to spend, perhaps you can find a used one in the UK?

Yes, something along those lines might be ideal and to an extent they copy the 15” Bell British Tubas of say the 1950’s. I’ve yet to see one of those Wessexs for sale second hand and wonder how popular they are new. Here in the U.K. few individuals buy brand new Tubas and the organisation’s that (instead) do buy them would almost certainly be much more interested in larger (19”) bell instruments.

Historically Brass Bands supplied each of their players with an instrument. As people became more wealthy players started to purchase a second instrument of their own but, of course, the smaller instruments tend to cost much less than the bigger ones and hence Tuba players tend to (still) use their Band’s instrument. Some do own and use a decades old Tuba that was affordable to them; it can be nice to be independent (of your Band) and using a particular Tuba over many years can give useful familiarity with it - you somehow grow into it.

Personally I’d like to continue using the Sovereign for Band rehearsals and jobs and have something easier to use of my own. I like the independence and I like something a little less taxing to use at home. The easier it is to play then: the longer that I can practice, the more I will enjoy playing and the better my progress will be. Of course there will come a time when all I can manage is a small Tuba ... I’d like to be able to be playing for decades to come so finding an easy blow now makes sense to me.

[bloke]

There's a USA-based 3-valve E-flat comp. that is satin silver and reasonably-priced on USA eBay.
With the draconian UK tariff and high shipping cost, IS (??) a reasonable work-around to un-solder the bell, un-solder the bottom bow, remove the pistons, caps, and slides, mail it as "scrap brass", and then mail the small components in a separate small box as "scrap brass" ?
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Again, most anything 3-valve is going to weigh significantly less (your primary objective) than anything (of the same length, and same general size range) in 4-valve.

...I've talked WAY too much about a project that I just completed...a 32-inch tall (sure: "small") Holton BB-flat with 5 valves. Though small, with all that "stuff" on-board, its weight approaches 24 lbs.

Additionally...not to be argumentative, but nonetheless...
It occurs to me that people with back/leg/strength/balance problems could drop off heavy tubas inside a rehearsal/stage door (in padded bags, strapped to collapsible lightweight two-wheelers), go park, wheel their (heavy) instruments next to their chairs, unpack, sit down, and rotate their instruments from the bell-on-the-floor position to the up-in-their-lap position...but (I'm very readily admitting) since I'm not yet in the situation of encountering these limitations, → I'm probably not being understanding enough, regarding these challenges. ...It just seems to me that "increased portability" is a far easier thing to achieve than "shaving (only?) six pounds off the weight of a tuba, and yet still having a tuba that is just as rewarding to use". again...This last paragraph has been typed APOLOGETICALLY, as (again) I'm not yet living with these limitations.