Miraphone kaiser B-flat (another project awaiting scheduling)

[bloke]

This is a magnificent 4-rotor instrument in remarkable condition, both wear-and-tear-wise and cosmetically.

It does NOT need 5 valves, but needs a couple of things done to it to address two pairs of pitches which are typical (nearly, with all tubas) acoustic or mathematical tuning problems: two 5th partial pitches, and the 2-4 tubing length issue.

I've thought-and-thought about the simplest and best ways to address both issues, and "light bulbs" finally lit up, today.

I believe I only need two inexpensive parts from Miraphone, and - if they cannot supply them -I can make them.

The instrument will be able to be played in tune - with both hands remaining stationary (with a constant comfortable/secure grasp on the instrument), and only the right-hand fingers and thumbs moving.

I'm not sure that I'll be keeping this instrument, but it's magnificent, and prefer to sell it as a PROFESSIONAL-GRADE (ie. "able to be played perfectly in tune") instrument, if indeed I do offer it for sale.

THIS IS NOT AN ADVERTISEMENT TO SELL IT "AS-IS", but just a notification, that - as soon as I can - I'm going to upgrade it as described above (thus: It's listed HERE, and NOT in the "for sale" section.

For comparison...
Here is is next to a Miraphone 186-BB.
Notice that (as a classic kaiser Deutsche orchester b-tuba) the Miraphone 190-BB's bell rim diameter is slightly SMALLER THAN the bell rim diameter of the model 186.

What does it sound like, bloke?

Imagine - if you will - a gigantic majestic tuba that - from a distance - looks as if it COULD be a 186, yet the 6'3"-tall man playing it appears to be a mere child...and the SOUND produced by the instrument falls within the same sound spectrum as the 186, but there's about 50% more of that sound - given the same amount of human effort.

bloke "...and yeah...the 186-BB "MILLENNIUM MODEL" - with gold brass bell - WILL DEFINITELY be for sale, very soon."

[Three Valves]

If it’s good enough for Rod…

[bort2.0]

Oh, look at that cute lil 186. :)

If I had to choose between the two, I would be rather conflicted. That 186 does look pretty sweet, though, and for the playing that I do -- and don't do -- and am unlikely to do again -- I bet it'd be just about perfect, and for a bunch less $ than I've got in the game right now.

[Doc]

I played this kaiser, and it is everything Joe says it is.

[bloke]

Unless someone buys it from me as-is (ie. oem), I would just like to see how it plays with out two typical-to-most-tubas distractions.
- two: flat 5th partial pitches
- two: sharp 2-4 valves pitches

[Kirley]

Unless someone buys it from me as-is (ie. oem), I would just like to see how it plays with out two typical-to-most-tubas distractions.
- two: flat 5th partial pitches
- two: sharp 2-4 valves pitches

I'll bite, since I can't seem to come up with the one simple thing that'll fix both of those.
Unless you're going to rig up a bidirectional main tuning slide kicker for the right thumb. I don't think I've ever seen something like that.

[bloke]

Unless someone buys it from me as-is (ie. oem), I would just like to see how it plays with out two typical-to-most-tubas distractions.
- two: flat 5th partial pitches
- two: sharp 2-4 valves pitches

I'll bite, since I can't seem to come up with the one simple thing that'll fix both of those.
Unless you're going to rig up a bidirectional main tuning slide kicker for the right thumb. I don't think I've ever seen something like that.

It's two things:
- right thumb main slide (slide-retracting) trigger...NOT bi-directional (as those seldom seem to recenter accurately and reliably)
- left thumb (and it's right where there's a comfortable instrument-holding position) pushing the 4th slide OUT for 2-4, with a spring to retract the 4th slide for other 4th valve applications.

fwiw...1-2-4 (with the main slide all the way in) is (via trials) "on the money" for "low" E-flat, just as it is for 1-2-3-4 (all the way in) for "low" C-sharp. Of course, 2-3-4 is always nearly perfect for "low" D.

"Low" C (if actually needed) can be played (and on pitch) by pulling absolutely everything out as far as it all can be pulled (ie. "possible, but not on-the-fly").

Even if the 5th partial D and D-flat were not flat with "open" and 1-2, that main-slide thing is (as described above) useful for the VERY low range, and is ALSO useful for the tuning descrepancies between F and C (4) and B and E (2-4), as well as for addressing the (also common to many tubas) "somewhat flat 8th partial" (Bb and A) tendencies.

Moreover, it's FUN to play a tuba that can EASILY be played (ALL pitches) in tune.
If I offer this for sale, I want the buyer to LIKE it...which means HAVING FUN playing it.
...and - if I do not sell it - ~I~ want to have fun playing it.

...a most all of the various (though I've only played a handful of different ones) "kaiser orchester b-tubas" that I've played feature most of these same tendencies...ie. "comes with the territory"...just like a "flat 3rd partial/sharp sixth partial" (generally) comes with the American-style 6/4 "territory".

[Kirley]

[bloke]

Wade is being very nice to me and is selling me a leftover piece of tubing that saves me from having to get it from Germany.
I have enough of the right size tubing, but it is in brass, and it’s good to have things look nice - and to match.
That piece of tubing (along with some Miraphone .835”-bore stuff that I have had for a long-long time) will help me reconfigure the couple of feet of tubing in the #4 circuit that involve the #4 tuning slide, and this will enable me to lengthen that circuit a bit, and also (with approximately 2”-longer tuning slide legs) improve #4 slide functionality. (I will be able to pull the slide out as far as needed, WITHOUT pulling it out almost all the way to the end. Unlike the o.e.m. design, approximately two inches of the pairs of slide tubes overlapping will encourage their consistent alignment and discourage binding, as consistent good internal alignment will allow a spring to retract the slide automatically - after being pulled out by the left thumb - on-the-fly - for 2-4 B or E tuning.)

[bloke]

I'm NOT "risking" being boring, because I KNOW GOOD AND WELL that this is boring...and attempting to show something in 2D that is somewhat complex in 3D is ALWAYS a fail...so here goes:

The stock 186 BB and 190 BB-flat #4 circuit "paints itself into a corner", leaving almost no room for the #4 slide (only a VERY short slide on a VERY long circuit), and with the #4 slide BARELY able to be pulled out enough for F and C, and NEVER enough for B and E.

The new #4 circuit slide will be LONGER, and will be moved out to the BACK of the instrument (just outside the plane which defines the #4 rounded-rectangular circuit...This accomplishes the same thing as is accomplished with the 186 CC 4th slide and circuit (a LONGER and ACCESSIBLE #4 slide) but in a way whereby I will AVOID a COMPLETE #4 circuit tear-out and redo, because [1] this instrument's finish is pretty darn nice and [2] I'm lazy, and like easy solutions to problems.

With the REDONE configuration, the #4 circuit will be long enough for C (pushed in ALL the way), will require a subtle (perhaps: 5/8") pull for "low F", and a LONG pull (most of the way out, but NOT as far as it can be pulled) for B-natural and E-natural.

I have the goofy factory-bent tubing branch needed (crappy yellow lines, in the picture) to get the #4 slide out BEHIND the tuba (rather than embedded inside the tuba), I also have a longer slide assembly, one (nice, purdy) correct-length NICKEL outside slide tube, and Wade (thank-you !!! ) is selling me the other outside slide tube. @the elephant

The current #4 slide alignment is "pretty good", but - when redone - it will be perfect, so that I can pull the slide out (for B and E) with my left thumb, and the slide will return (to all-the-way-in position) via a spring, when the thumb releases the slide.




The complete #2 slide-and-rotor (in the box) is probably Bohemian, but it is the same bore size, so it's in this box.
The long BRASS tube is the correct SIZE for outside slide tubing, but - well... - it's brass.
The NICKEL outside slide tubes (in the box) are just as short as the short slide already on the tuba.

Once I get this thing reconfig'ed...and get a MAIN slide (which ALREADY features ASTONISHINGLY PERFECT factory alignment) 'pull-in-and-spring-recover-back-out-for-most-all-other-pitches" RIGHT-thumb trigger on the MAIN slide (to pull in the main slide for "open" D and 2nd-valve D-flat) this tuba will be rockin' with good tuning !!!

[the elephant]

I think you are saying that the BBb 190's 4th circuit is more or less routed the same as on the 186 BBb. If that is so, I was able to very closely reproduce the CC 4th circuit using the original parts. I had to swap around all the slide assemblies to make them all work, so the C-ified 4th actually uses the BBb 3rd slide assembly. Since you can't do that you could still mimic this with some ferrules and some BRASS INNER TUBING (#84). If placed with care and cleaned up I do not think it would look any less than your normal standard and would get you what you need. I only have NS #84 tubing, but I *think* after the chopping up of the old 4th circuit you end up with enough straight material to splice in extensions so that you can use this 120mm slide assembly.

Anyway, just to let you peep at the BBb 4th hacked-up into the two halves of the CC slide, here are two pics from that BBb-to-CC conversion project. If you start with the same shape/length of runners as the 186 then this can be done with the parts you have there on the tuba. If not, then all this has been a waste of time.



Right assembly, upper-left bow — I had to twist that part so that it looked like it was a pair of legs that were walking so that the angle of the slide assembly as assembled to the other half would match. This was minor enough that I did not have to fill or anneal it. I just very slowly and carefully bent it "nekkid".


When assembled to the horn, except for the different shape of that bow I had to bend and for some extra ferrules it looks more or less stock. If you look carefully you can see a ferrule and a short, patched-in length of tube going into the bottom of the slide assembly. That was an… er… measuring error…

[bloke]

I will VERY strongly consider your tack (which I now recall from your thread - Thank-you!), but a couple of things I like about the other plan are that I can leave most of the shiny factory-lacquered original circuit in place, and also my left hand thumb will be in a lower position on the instrument - where I can hold onto the tuba with my left hand fingers and pull the 4th slide crook up with my left thumb.

[bloke]

Your 4th circuit configuration additionally incorporates shortening that circuit to the C length.
Mine would remain B-flat length, so I believe the #4 slide would end up sticking up pretty darn high in that configuration.
I could always wig it out with a mock-up to check it, though...

I'm thinking that - with my minor reroute - I will end up with the #4 slide just about as seen in this crappy video (which is just good enough of a video to demonstrate the desired end result)...

Actually...
It looks as though what you did (and what I will attempt) aren't that much different...except (since this one is in such un-beat-up condition - and shiny) I'll be trying to leave as much of the original factory mounting as possible, and disturb as little of the factory finish as possible.

https://i.imgur.com/StUgSey.mp4

[the elephant]

Miraohone made the BBb 186 available with the CC 4th slide routing, but I have never seen one. Perhaps it was an option for the Euro market?

I would look for a photo of that horn and see how they wrapped it. My horn does not use my routing, but Miraphone's; it is as close of a copy as I could make using the BBb parts only. I suspect the added length for the BBb slide must have been incorporated in some clever manner that would be worth examining, if a photo could be found.

Did you mail that label yet? We have porch pirates, so a heads up on delivery time would help ensure it is not stolen from our mailbox.

[bloke]

That envelope went out one or two days ago. I didn’t put any tracking on it, because that would have made it look as if it were valuable.
There’s a letter-envelope-size multiple-page brochure inside from some college’s jazz festival where I was asked to participate several years ago, I paid enough postage for the extra ounce and for the stiffness of the envelope. The return address refers to something-or-other like the “blokePlace Jazzy-illogical Society” - or something along those lines.

I honestly think that two of those old/new brown tarnished bends - that you see in the picture of that box - combined with rotating that existing downward U-turn bow - should just about stab that slide where my $h!tty video demonstrates.
Also, it’s necessary for me to understand that this circuit needs to be about five inches longer than the typical (sharp-natured) Miraphone B-flat 4th slide circuit, because I want “low” F to be in tune with that slide all the way in - as the entire purpose of the reroute is to make an in-tune and on-the-fly pull (for 2-4) possible.

Just posting about this nonsense has prompted me to toot on the instrument a little bit, and I’ve become more accustomed/acclimated to it than ever before. An “easy blow“ produces a bunch of sound, and the low range sings without being brassy. Yes, it can be blasted on - like a lot of people routinely do in videos with the York-style 6/4 C tubas, but I feel confident that a rationed and reasonable “puff“ - to produce low range pitches - is going to produce plenty of resonance and volume to be heard in proper balance with most any orchestra... ie. I believe I’m beginning to understand how these things work, and how to operate them.

Here is one example:
That long and somewhat technical phrase - which begins on “low F” - towards the beginning of the March in Holst’s 2nd Suite…
As long as my energy level is high, my air expenditure level - to play that long-ish somewhat technical phrase is not high at all, and the low notes resonate very nicely - and with a sound oddly similar to that of a 1960s-era Besson comp tuba.

bloke “I don’ nee no steeinkin’ feeth valve.”

[bloke]

I’m crazy busy, but I am considering going ahead and doing thIs fourth circuit alteration - and doing the spring return later - since I’ve got people looking at this thread, now.

[bloke]

Wade's kindly-sold piece of tubing arrived (a day later than predicted by USPS, but on the day that seemed more logical).

2D pictures and words suck...but here's the junk that's going to become the new routing to the #4 circuit's new (longer-legged) slide:







...so the #4 slide will be LONGER and will be moved OUTSIDE the instrument's body cavity (for on-the-fly left-thumb accessibility - so that 4th-valve-depressed C/F will be all-the-way-in (as the #4 circuit will ALSO be lengthened by a few inches) and 2-4-valves B/E will be with the #4 slide OUT approximately 2-1/2 inches. When released, a return spring will bring the #4 slide back DOWN to all-the-way-in left thumb.

IF (??) I end up selling this instrument (to one of you...??) the new owner (if that happens) will really enjoy this feature/option, as B and E will be able to easily be played in tune (aka: "flat enough").

[bloke]

...so I found one of these size-specific trim rings in my junk, and also found that this (186) main slide brace is the same span as this 190 #1, #3, and #4 slide brace, so it will be child's-play to repurpose.

Already-have/free = great !