Rekindling an old flame

[cjk]

A thought about the 188:

If the wrap of the bows and branches were more open and took up more space, would people still classify this horn as a 4/4 or 4+/4?

I always felt that it was pretty close in volume to the 2155 and it’s derivatives.

Related: the ability of Miraphone to wrap that bugle up so compactly and ergonomically is an art in and of itself.

Realistically, the 2155 is a 4/4 tuba. IMHO, the only place it's "5/4" is in marketing materials.

then what do you call the 2145? It's clearly a 4/4 horn, but smaller than the 2155

The 2145 is like a 186 while the 2155 was like a 188. Both in the 4/4 ballpark, but two different designs.

IMHO, the closest size comparison of the 2155 was the Hirsbrunner 4/4 piston CC (HBS 390 aka HB-2P).

[the elephant]

… it also makes the crooks that much more durable…

Nickel silver is stiffer than yellow brass and is therefore also more "springy". It can take some abuse and return to its original shape. It is more difficult to lightly ding up but still crushes as easily as yellow brass. Slides that are very well aligned by the factory worker usually stay that way because the crooks are more forgiving of abuse. However, the price is that it is difficult to work out fine dents or flat spots without annealing or using a lot of pressure that yellow brass does not require.

… corrosion resistant…

Yes, if you clarify some things. it is very resistant to red rot, which is dezincification. There is little to no zinc in the various alloys of nickel silver, also called "white copper".

However, it still gets just as crappy from schmutz due to neglect. I have noted that NS-to-NS inner/outer slide tubes can freeze together much more easily (and can be more difficult to pull apart) when the grease is allowed to dry out if the horn is not kept very clean.

In my opinion, the best combo of tubing metals for someone who does not keep their horn clean and well lubricated (especially when left alone for long stretches of time) is NS outers with YB inners. These have the added strength/rigidity of the NS on the outside, which takes the impacts and abuse, with the more forgiving YB inners that tend to not get so badly stuck in place. The aesthetics of NS outers is wonderful, but the inners do not matter in this way so much, so this is a good combination for most people and the standard for Miraphone tubas. (NS costs about double the price of YB, so this is a great compromise for their standard kit to save the company a few bucks. The NS/NS valve sets are quite beautiful, and cost more because of the price difference of the basic materials, but are not the best choice, IMHO. Of course, I am a bit of an idiot, so my horns frequently have NS/NS slides, heh, heh…)

… more difficult to work/bend…

I have ordered a lot of NS parts from Miraphone to replace the YB stuff I had purchased at an earlier time. They come from the factory in raw form, with the tails from the hydraulic bow-out press still in place, with a completely unfinished surface that requires a good deal of sanding, burnishing, or buffing to make shiny. I can tell you from experience that these are frequently a little more crude-looking than the same parts in YB and take a lot more time to prep and finish. Leadpipes in NS have more telltale wrinkles from bending; it is difficult to bend NS without wrinkling it, and it is difficult to tap out the wrinkles due to the aforementioned springiness of the material, so more sanding must be done by the factory.

… the nickel silver should pretty much last forever…

Yep. Every really old instrument I have had (or worked on) with a mixture of NS and YB (or the even softer GB or RB) had NS that was pretty much fully intact, whereas the YB sometimes corroded away or the edges crumbled off of tubes. I have not noted NS's propensity to crack like old YB, in fact, I do not remember personally coming across cracked NS, though I am sure it happens. I just don't have enough experience with it to know.

…would only cost a few hundred more…

This is a bargain, so far as new tubas go. The material costs twice that of yellow brass. It takes more labor time to prepare. (Blowing out crooks in the press takes the same time, but cleaning up the parts takes more effort. Hand-bending a custom leadpipe costs a LOT. I have had two made for me and the pipe cost very little, having it bent to the normal forms is, of course, more. But to bend a pipe that cannot be put into the current forms (meaning hand-bent by eye) is very expensive. And to bend a leadpipe in NS by hand is very costly. I had a 188 pipe in NS bent to fit a 186 and it cost me dearly and took them two tries that I know of. I am guessing they had to take a couple of swipes at it and then sent me the best one, but it did not fit due to a misunderstanding of what I wanted. (I suspect the worker was unclear as we had to play an email version of "Telephone" through a few people, and the first version took a month to get here, and then they were on their long summer holiday, then we had to exchange photos and all that. Overall, from first order to final leadpipe took about half of a year. And it was worth it to me, as I have exactly what I wanted. But man, what a complex process it was!

If I ever purchased a new 188 with all NS from the receiver to the pretzel for only a few hundred more than the normal price I should be quite excited about it. ;-) The net takeaway is a horn that is very beautiful, very strong, and very resistant to dezincification.

I think that if Matt ends up liking the GB thing that he has an excellent tuba that is a keeper. If not, he has some really selling power as that horn, fixed up, is worth a good bit of coin, I think.

[bloke]

topic: MIRAPHONE
subtopic: SIDEBARS: B-flat, and smaller

I friend of mine just picked up a 184 B-flat for an attractive price.
They're excited. It's a bit rougher than your nice 188, there.
The "corners" of it are a bit short-cutted (dented), and they're driving to blokePlace on Friday to have it made back into a NOT-dented-looking 184.

[jtm]

Has the bell size of the 188 changed since the first models, like the 186? Or did the 186 already have a bigger bell by the time the 188 was introduced?

[bloke]

“Anniversary Model”

...so are those minor dents and creases still in the instrument, or have they been removed?
I guess I’m confused.

[bort2.0]

Original photos. Dude is holding out on the Afters!

Funny thing about the "Anniversary" Model is that Miraphone said they have no record of an official model for this, or any idea what "Anniversary" it represents.

Best guess... The California importer offered this as a special order, for some anniversary or another of ...?

Mine was from 1984, I believe. I had a Miraphone dealer price list that I sold to Mark Jones, and it had this model listed, so it was a "real thing," at least to the California Mirafone folks.

[bloke]

Original photos. Dude is holding out on the Afters!

Funny thing about the "Anniversary" Model is that Miraphone said they have no record of an official model for this, or any idea what "Anniversary" it represents.

Best guess... The California importer offered this as a special order, for some anniversary or another of ...?

Mine was from 1984, I believe. I had a Miraphone dealer price list that I sold to Mark Jones, and it had this model listed, so it was a "real thing," at least to the California Mirafone folks.

OK... Cool then… No additional dent removal is needed, as it’s already been done.

I believe the name creation occurred during the Gavigan, Yerkes, Bundy (Jr.) import company ownership era (Valencia whse)...and yes: no special engraving on the bell indicating anything.

I’m sure this particular instrument is better than was mine, but mine was made of these metals and called that. I bought it new. It featured a factory left thumb slide trigger (folded down to put in a case or bag to avoid damage), and the fifth valve was left index activated.
I was told that it was ordered by a high-profile player and rejected. We all know of a famous California-based player (during the early 80’s) who liked having left thumb 5th slide triggers on their tubas. I probably should have taken the hint and not bought it. Again, it was the worst 188 I ever played, but still not a “bad” instrument.

[kingrob76]

The "get well soon" work is indeed complete. I was hoping to get some "beauty" shots at Mount Vernon on Friday but for now here's the horn in it's "after" state:



A few key things: the horn is CLEAN. The vast majority of the dent work came out just fine and I tried to show what remained behind, including scarring and such. However, when I looked at from the context of an instrument that is 38 years old, well, it's really in remarkable shape and I'm very happy with the condition and results. There was some valve work needed as well.

I've done a TON of reading about these over the past few months. As near as I can tell, this version (the "Anniversary Model") came out in 1983 initially which makes this one of the first of it's "kind" (it being a late 83/early 84 production date). According to Norm Pearson, the first run of 188's were finished in the spring of 1981 and sent to Sun Valley, a shipment of three horns. Norm bought one and the other two went to Steve Klein (LA Freelancer) and Michael Margules (USC Student). The first prototype was sold to Fred Greene (LA Free Lancer) and later was owned by Chuck Koontz. Roger Bobo, Tommy Johnson and Jim Self received their instruments from the next shipment. Norm's serial number was 10345 (this one is 12572) and he wishes he had kept it :-)

[matt g]

Seeing that 3rd and 4th slide nestled in the horn reminds me of how “set it and forget it” the tuning was. Only first needed manipulation and I set the horn up, tuning-wise, like the old 3Js were meant to be set up, where it’s a three valve tuba with a register key. Access to 5th was nice so that I had an alternate to the open fundamental C that, when pushed, sounded like sheet metal being ripped apart, but also offered a pppp pedal C.

[bort2.0]

Looks great, congratulations!

Mine had a much darker gold brass look... And was used heavily over it's life (in the good way). Use yours in good health and I hope you keep it for a VERY long time. You (just like me) have been talking about finding a great 188 for a awfully long time...

[cjk]

Even the before pictures looked pretty decent, if a bit scummy in spots. Not really the train wreck I expected. Congrats on your purchase!

[bloke]

What I like seeing is that the "keel" on the bottom bow is NOT mushed in.

[bort2.0]

Mine was 13039. I sold it in 2014, and the buyer has been smart, and kept it longer than me. :) I understand that my tuba was owned/used by someone in a USAF band, but I don't know any more than that, unfortunately.

Does yours have "Made in Germany" engraved on the *kranz*? I always thought that was a bit unusual, and pretty neat. Maybe every old Miraphone was like this, though!

[bloke]

I just checked a pre-unification Mirafone tuba kranz.
It also reads "GERMANY" (and NOT "West Germany").

SUBTOPIC: fond memories of formerly-owned tubas

When I get one back in my hands (same actual instrument or same model), I - fairly quickly - remember why I sold it.

[the elephant]

Mine was 13039. I sold it in 2014, and the buyer has been smart, and kept it longer than me. :) I understand that my tuba was owned/used by someone in a USAF band, but I don't know any more than that, unfortunately.

Does yours have "Made in Germany" engraved on the *kranz*? I always thought that was a bit unusual, and pretty neat. Maybe every old Miraphone was like this, though!

Both of my 1971 186 tubas have this. The CC has it on the kranz and the BBb has it on the bell just inside of the edge of the kranz. Both are exactly opposite of the logo, meaning they are centered on the rear side of the bell.

This is the BBb bell. The new kranz is not installed in the photo.


The CC is just like this (facing out) but on the kranz like yours.

[kingrob76]

My tech and I talked about options for how far to go with the work. In the end I decided against any disassembly and to tackle the mainly low-hanging fruit because I still needed to decide if I was going to keep the horn (which I am leaning towards, but, not 100% decided). He still went above and beyond that and got out things with magnet balls that I had just planned on living with. The kranz edge on the inside of the bell was sticking up a bit so he burnished it and worked it down to a reasonable position. It's got an edge still that you could catch some skin on, though, but I'm a grown up and can assume those risks.

I have a decent list of things I want to do with this should I decide this is my "forever" 188. I haven't explicitly checked but 1st needs venting I think. The 5th valve decision will have to be made, probably in early fall - maybe I look into getting a long 5th slide built for my 6/4 instead, who knows? I could see swapping out the linkage for the modern version which I have to say impresses me every time I play them at a conference. Re-finishing the lacquer wouldn't be out of the question and I have to admit I might think about doing something unusual like a satin or antique finish. Essentially I'd be treating this like an old hot rod but tailored to be distinctive more than stock, with a project getting completed every year or two.

[bort2.0]

Here's a fifth conversion that I've seen in the past, interestingly, on another 188 Anniversary Model:



I believe the goal with this one was no new parts were needed. Looks pretty well-done to me, but I'm sure there are many ways to accomplish this!

I had considered switching the linkages on my tuba, but scrapped that idea due to the cost. I DID buy a set of new fifth valve linkage parts so I could have the "bar" style fifth valve paddle of newer Miraphones. I kept the parts for several years, and never got around to having them installed. Later sold them to Wade. I bet you could still buy them, but holy cow, I bet they are big $ these days. If I still had that tuba, I'd probably buy a handful of those nylon ball sockets and keep them in a drawer for whenever I needed more, and then just go with it. :)

[kingrob76]

Here's a fifth conversion that I've seen in the past, interestingly, on another 188 Anniversary Model:



I believe the goal with this one was no new parts were needed. Looks pretty well-done to me, but I'm sure there are many ways to accomplish this!

And it actually looks like a whole step, a flat one at that. Does anyone know, offhand, the actual desired length of a flat whole step 5th valve circuit?

[bloke]

You really wouldn’t need to do a whole lot to convert the linkage, though I always thought that particular type of linkage that you have there works just fine.
Though you could convert the existing stop arms, it would just be a lot easier and cleaner to buy five new ones.
The ends of those fancy action arms are 3 mm threads that screw right on to Minibal small size links that you can purchase directly from the manufacturer in Germany - the only tedious thing being that you would have to play with each one with a file, so that the final tightening point of each one “lands“ at the correct orientation, because there’s no room for a lock nut.
If you additionally wanted something like those linkage control springs that are used on Markneukirchen linkage, there are some cute little miniature springs sold by McMaster/Carr which are very thin (flat metal) and tiny which would do the job without having to do any alteration other than maybe including a DuBro cone-shaped brass riser (to accommodate said springs).
me...?? I would be perfectly satisfied with what’s there, as long as the nylon sockets were smooth on the inside, and the nylon tension screws were correctly adjusted.

[donn]

Does anyone know, offhand, the actual desired length of a flat whole step 5th valve circuit?

How does 33 inches sound?

I got this out of a little demo program I wrote recently: Valve Lab. It originally didn't display the valve lengths, because it doesn't seem to me that this kind of simplified mathematical model is likely to provide really accurate lengths, but with that caveat, now it does - in centimeters. 1 inch = 2.54 cm.

The tuning I used to get that valve length makes 4-5 F a hair flat, and 1-2-3-4-5 Db is square on. The notes in between are a bit sharp.