old HIGH-PITCH 3+1 comp. E-flats

[bloke]

Most of these feature patches and epic valve wear...and top-action valve rebuilding has always been expensive, but now the least expensive of it has about tripled in price, so…

...but considering how rare the English 3+1 compensating F tubas are, has anyone taken one of the HIGH PITCH E-flats (defining less material to remove), and shortened one of these to F successfully?

(...and whether any of the 3+1 compensating F tubas was ever successful is up for debate.)

[the elephant]

The Besson 3+1 F (1950s) owned by UNT seemed to use a comp valve set from an Eb. Since not all of the comp loops can be shortened it seems that this contributes to that tuba's erratic, terrible scale. In the staff it is weird, and below it (when the comp loops come into play) it is almost unplayably out of tune. It can be mastered, but it wasted a lot of my private lesson time to figure out during one semester.

It has a different bell from the small Eb compers, and probably acutally has a competely unique set of branches, come to think of it. They missed the mark on these by a long way, and I think part of the reason they decided to not fix it was that they did not want to make a compensating three piston set unique to the horn whereby the one or two unadjustable comp loops could be shortened enough. To me it always looked like it would have required the pistons to be smaller and closer together to shorten the one very short loop properly. I think that piston set had two loops without slides, brazed to the casings on both ends, and thereby not adjustable at all.

I think the non-adjustable comp loops would contribute to some really hellaciously bad low register tuning, rather than improving it as they are supposed to do.

Just opinion, but it is based on one of those sweet sounding but scurrilous* factory F tubas and NOT on an Eb of the same size/configuration. I believe I have seen these horns, though, and remember them also having the same nonadjustable compensating loops.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong. All I ever do around here is piss into the wind, anyway.

_________________
* By scurrilous I mean that those Besson F tubas try very hard to defame you.

[Yorkboy]

If I’m not mistaken, high pitch in the UK (brass band specifically) lingered right up into the 70s, so it might even be possible to run across one that’s as new (?) as 50 years old.

As far as I can see, F top-action compensators are as scarce as hens teeth, at least on this side of the pond. In the 40+ years I’ve been active, I’ve run across only ONE (there might be a reason for this?).

Sounds like a fun project, tho.

[bloke]

I’ve actually played the tuba to which Wade refers. I was down there to play in a friend’s DMA recital during a sweltering summer in the late 1970’s. I had been offered some money to continue to go to school there, but decided otherwise.
As I recall, the worst thing about that little “tubaette” was the eighth partial being flat, which is common with F tubas, and is aurally apparent on the Arnold Jacobs VW recording as well.

[the elephant]

Your memories of that tuba are pretty far from accurate. You needed to play it in a top flight ensemble for three years to see that it can only be played well in tune by lipping a lot of notes, some so far out of center that the tone suffers a lot.

But you're going to do what you're going to do.

Personally, I would never consider cutting a compensating valve set if some of the compensating loops were not able to be shortened, because the notes that use them will be flat, and, as with top piston tubas, cannot be adjusted without "lipping" out of the center of the pitch and affecting the "color" of the note. (The people who rely on that term really mean that the altered pitch is less full and sticks out. That is not "coloring" a note; it is hiding an out of tune note by lipping it out of center.)

"I love my new XX-1234/2 tuba! The tone is so flexible and colorful!"
— <insert name of famous tuba artiste here>

Yeah, it has to be flexible and colorful so you can lip that metallic cow into tune to match the people you are playing with!

HAHAHA!!!

Our concepts of the mechanics of playing are obviously very different. Good luck with cutting down that Eb comp valve set. If it turns out that the not-shortened comp loops do not cause an issue I will raise a beer in your honor and then snap up one of these horns to cut for my own amusement.

[LargeTuba]

If anyone wanted to try this I have a great old besson I would sell for fair market value.

It features almost factory new valves.

I Don't care whatcha do with it as long as I'm payed

[bloke]

I only tooted on it for about three minutes. with no tuner (as the only portable tuners - at that time - were about the size of a paperback book, cost $200 - 1970's, and a large clear plastic dial had to be turned for each individual pitch. Chuck Schulz had it checked out, but with no plans on using it anywhere for anything...He owned a model 80, just as you later owned, and also disliked the Besson's tuning challenges.)
I'm not "planning on" doing anything in particular.
I was only mostly asking if anyone had ever tried chopping a high-pitch 15" bell E-flat to F, and not really whether anyone-in-particular "likes" the factory Besson F tubas.
First, it would be challenging to even locate one of those old "flat E-natural" compensating tubas (due to age, institutional ownership, and decades of brass-band usage) with decent valves.
Second, I may possibly already own the finest F tuba in existence, so it's not as if I'm seeking "something better".
Third, the high-pitch ("flat E-natural") tubas were much more similar to the (play darn-well in-tune with themselves) A=440 E-flat Besson tubas than they are to those (oddball/*have-only-encountered-a-few-of-them in-my-lifetime) factory 3+1 F tubas, so there might (??) actually be a slightly better chance of one of those being cut so something usable...which is why I asked.

The pitches that Jake couldn't manage to quite fix (in his recording with a factory 3+1 F) seemed to mostly be upper D/D-flat...which are also characteristically low on some of the best F tubas (with the best alternates - if chosen over favoring - often being 1-2 and 2-4). A whole bunch of other said-to-be-great-by-many F tubas feature a second-space "open" C that is so high as to be a nonstarter (at least, for me)...so as a "stumbling block" is encountered - in the middle range of the tuba - which just a bad as the characteristically low "open" F (another nonstarter for me, but acceptable to many others) encountered on all 2XJ and 36J tubas.
I've also played quite a few(and owned a couple of) rotary/piston Kurath/Willson F tubas. Though the similar Kurath/Willson E-flat tubas' tuning is really quite manageable (easy/excellent/etc.), the F versions (though they "feel" great to play) are quite challenging and not-particularly-close-following-at-all to equal temperament tuning charts - at least not in my experience (remarkably similar - issues-wise - to the comparison of the UK 3+1 E-flat and F tubas)...though my concepts of the mechanics of playing may be very different from those of some others.
______________________________
*I first encountered the NTSU-owned one, later encountered one owned by a university in Florida (I'm thinking: Connie Weldon's school...It had a replaced mouthpipe tube), one that someone pulled out of their car in the parking lot at the international tuba shindig in Lexington, KY (decades ago), one that someone had at Interlochen, one summer (mid 1970's), and one ("Boosey") that Klaus Bjerre had owned...They were all very similar, and all played about the same..."felt" good...8th partial flat, and I played all of them about as many minutes as the NTSU-owned one. Were it that I evaluated any of those as "good", I would have owned one, by now.

[bloke]

ok...I'm done...and I shouldn't have...

[the elephant]

Yep. Stinkers.

I have often remarked that it is easier to play a goofy-a$$ed Alex with pitches out by as much as 40¢ than one of those little Bessons (or any comp horn that has a bad scale out of the gate. The Alex is supremely able to be manipulated while staying dead in the middle of each pitch. It is just a lot of work that many (like you, as you have stated many times) do not want to do. The Besson was not all that out of tune on any notes (except for the ones you mentioned as well as a number of low notes with the comp loops engaged) but you could not make it play in tune without a lot of compromises to the sound you made, with phrases featuring all sorts of (ahem) "coloring" by the "artist" to get it to play in tune. The overture to Benvenuto Cellini was a good example of how fantastic that little F could sound, with a miserable kid attached to the small end. The upper G and A were in need of a LOT of lipping. I have played some horns that are not negatively affected by lipping out of center to fix a whacked out pitch, but this Besson was not one of them. I have been told that that example is not far from how most of them played. It is playable. (I did a very decent job with it for three years, but I never once enjoyed it or felt that I could relax and just play at any point.) I would not own one, though. The compromises you have to make are not something I want to have to deal with. I am much more of the Alexander type of player who greatly prefers to fix issues with a slide. I started out as a decent trumpeter, so using alternates and adjusting slides is part of my DNA.

To-may-to, to-mah-to…

[the elephant]

By the way, I was serious. If you do one of these conversions — ever — I am very interested in seeing how it comes out and would gladly drive up to take a test drive if that option was available at that future date. I really like the old, small-belled Eb tubas of that brand. I liked the one high pitch one I played, even though it was more of an E tuba than an Eb, and therefore not of any use to me. I like them more than I like the US "Monster" horns. If it were a do-able conversion I would find one and do the work just for fun. (I'm not sure I would keep it because I absolutely hate the playing position of top valve horns, so I would never own one except to try and flip at some point.

My teasing you about the loops that cannot be shortened is all academic. If you do this to a HP horn the errors introduced to the scale would be no worse than the errors that were there in the first place. (I also hate compensated horns. The one exception would be an old Besson Imperial three valve compensating BBb. I like those. But again, I can't stand how you have to hold them. If I had started my "musical journey" playing a top piston tuba it would have ended at the end of beginning band.)

[bloke]

last two posts

Believe me...I've played a WHOLE BUNCH of stinky-pitch tubas over the years...as (just as many others) I was hypnotized by "the sound" (even though "the sound" had nothing to do with pitches used in music).

Arguably (whoops...It MIGHT (??) be triggerin' time...!!! )

the quirkiest-tuning factory-built "concert" tuba that I ever owned/played was a 4/4 R.M. (brand name cloaked by a method with which you're familiar) 5-rotor thing...and most of the E-flat sousaphones - that I tried to use in the past (in jazz bands) - required CONSTANT stretching of several of the most commonly-needed pitches (INCLUDING friggin' E-FRIGGIN'-FLAT !!! ).
That having been said, Joe (groovlow) brought a Conn 28K here a few months ago that - after some alterations and some cutting here and there - was AMAZING...I would LOVE to own that instrument (and am jealous).

[groovlow]

Thanks BLOKE I gigged on the 28K five times last week NEW NECK TOO
Definitely better sound, fuller and easier than my beloved 26K, AKA '52

Hammering the low G on "Low Rider" quite fun + Ringing major third harp motif STACCATO
The 28K feels 10 lbs heavier. Can this be ?

[bloke]

Thanks BLOKE I gigged on the 28K five times last week NEW NECK TOO
Definitely better sound, fuller and easier than my beloved 26K, AKA '52

Hammering the low G on "Low Rider" quite fun + Ringing major third harp motif STACCATO
The 28K feels 10 lbs heavier. Can this be ?

If you decide to take up low-jump skydivin' or alligator rasslin', list that thing in your will as heading bloke's way...

[groovlow]

Maybe some horse trading (28K) in the future.
How about an old highpitch Besson shortened to E with a pinky rotor fourth circuit, oh yea bellfront

The 26k can definitely rattle some wallets.

[2nd tenor]

Maybe cutting and expecting to (eventually) get a good result is asking too much from the design.

I used to play an old High Pitch 3+1 comp Eb and it was fine enough for me at that time. As I recall it had been converted to A440 pitch by adding spacers to the valve tuning slides and a loop to the main tuning slide. IMHO the loop on the main tuning slide wasn’t a good change and better arrangements are possible if not as easy to do.

I’d happily play another of these old Tubas but would want a proper low pitch pitch conversion job on it.

[2nd tenor]

Duplicate post

[cjk]

If someone really really really wanted a 3+1 compensated F tuba and did NOT want one of the originals, IMHO, the BEST chance of success would be to rework Yamaha 621 F tuba bows (obviously flipped around and reworked and preferably with the larger bell from the 821) with a shortened Yamaha 631 or 632 valve set (and probably the leadpipe as well).

I owned Klaus' former Boosey F tuba for several years well before Klaus did. He bought it from the person I sold it to.

I imported it from the UK to the US and had the valves rebuilt. Even with Anderson perfect valves, it just wasn't fantastic.

I wanted it to be so much better than it was. At the time, I was already proficient at playing a 5v F tuba, but I had to work hard to learn to play it. There was wrapping my brain around 3+1, but then there was also other "stuff".
If your only criteria for a good F tuba is a good low C, then that tuba had it.
However, the 3rd partial C was low. The 8th partial F was low and really didn't want to be pushed up. The upper register really didn't jump out of the instrument like many other F tubas.

Eventually I A/B'd it with a nice B&S F tuba and then immediately wondered why I was even bothering with the Boosey.

Its current owner likes it and thinks it's cool.

If any of these played overall as well as a Yamaha 621 F tuba (an instrument which I'm honestly lukewarm on), I'd have one. I've always wanted an F tuba which was a fat euphonium. That itch really didn't get scratched until acquiring a Yamaha 631 E flat.