CC tubas -- 4 or 5 valves?

[DandyZ629]

Can you post a photo of your tuba?! I chased my tail to find a rotary Conn CC tuba for almost 10 years, before finally giving up. Still like to look at them... can you tell us about it?

Here it be! I don't know a ton about it other than it was made in 1923. Rotors come out the top. Roughly and 18" bell, about 36" tall. Bows are large. It's a 5/4 for sure. Bore is .810". It's a bit of an airhog, but doesn't like to be forced either. Especially in the lower register. If I relax into it, the horn just roars. I haven't gotten the sound to break up. Like at all. It's actually kind of funny. I definitely want to know more about this thing. It's unique to be sure.

Sounds awesome! I don't see it though... if you tried posting a photo, can you try again please?

Sorry, I'm fairly inept technologically. I thought I could just post it, but I fixed it now. There's a link in the post.

[Doc]

I can't speak for Dave Kirk, but my observation when I was his student and when I still worked around town all the time is that his main orchestra tuba was nearly always his 4v 163, occasionally using the 5v 163. In quintet/solo, he used his rare 157 5v 3/4 CC Alex with the F tuba bell. Then at some point, he started using a Nirschl 6/4 CC (IDK if that was his choice, the orchestra's choice - never asked him; IMHO doesn't sound as rich and glorious as the Alex). Dave has always sounded incredible regardless of the instrument, but he absolutely KILLED it with the 4v, especially down low, and it was always in tune. He let me try his 4v 163, and I thought it was a really good player. If I owned it, I wouldn't do anything to it to mess it up. I'm sure I'm not in Dave's will, but Dave... if you're listening... (I can hear him saying, "Yeah, man... nice dream." LOL)

And most all of the Germans use 4v BBb tubas as their big tuba, with a number of them sporting... a 2nd valve slide kicker. And they sound fantastic with no 5th valve. A more inexpensive, yet helpful addition to your Alex could be a 2nd valve slide kicker. More common in Europe than here, but very useful. Won't interfere with anything in the bugle.

[bort2.0]

Here it be! I don't know a ton about it other than it was made in 1923. Rotors come out the top. Roughly and 18" bell, about 36" tall. Bows are large. It's a 5/4 for sure. Bore is .810". It's a bit of an airhog, but doesn't like to be forced either. Especially in the lower register. If I relax into it, the horn just roars. I haven't gotten the sound to break up. Like at all. It's actually kind of funny. I definitely want to know more about this thing. It's unique to be sure.

Sounds awesome! I don't see it though... if you tried posting a photo, can you try again please?

Sorry, I'm fairly inept technologically. I thought I could just post it, but I fixed it now. There's a link in the post.

That's amazing! Is this the one that was on eBay a little while ago?

Haha, my wife caught me looking at the listing, and I got the "no" before I could speak a single word. For the best, but haha, that was over before it began. I DID seriously look for one of those for nearly 10 years though.

What you describe sounds an awful lot like my experience with the original Conn Geib mouthpieces. It does NOT like to be forced, and it will back up on you quickly if you try to force it. Relax... and it's great. I just don't relax very well, so I had to move on

[DandyZ629]

Sounds awesome! I don't see it though... if you tried posting a photo, can you try again please?

Sorry, I'm fairly inept technologically. I thought I could just post it, but I fixed it now. There's a link in the post.

That's amazing! Is this the one that was on eBay a little while ago?

Haha, my wife caught me looking at the listing, and I got the "no" before I could speak a single word. For the best, but haha, that was over before it began. I DID seriously look for one of those for nearly 10 years though.

What you describe sounds an awful lot like my experience with the original Conn Geib mouthpieces. It does NOT like to be forced, and it will back up on you quickly if you try to force it. Relax... and it's great. I just don't relax very well, so I had to move on

That it is! I live in Cincinnati and drove up to Chicago to play it and it came home with me. I have some mods that need to be done, valve springs, corks, moving some bracing etc...but nothing to alter it's sound character. I've been using a Theinert TU42 Orchestral on it, but still experimenting. I also want to find out as much info as I can about it.

[tclements]

5

[Pauvog1]

5

[Pauvog1]

And most all of the Germans use 4v BBb tubas as their big tuba, with a number of them sporting... a 2nd valve slide kicker. And they sound fantastic with no 5th valve. A more inexpensive, yet helpful addition to your Alex could be a 2nd valve slide kicker. More common in Europe than here, but very useful. Won't interfere with anything in the bugle.

I think that is the best first option if you have a 4v horn that makes you happy.

[Tom]

I have now had my 4 valve Alexander 163 CC for 14 1/2 years.

I didn't seek out a 4 valve CC tuba, that's just what it was. I had just been looking for a rotary CC and had a special interest in Alexanders. When I bought it, my thinking was that I'd have a 5th valve added to it. I did own a 4 valve Rudy Meinl 5/4 CC for a bit, but otherwise my CC tubas had been five valve and that's what I had learned on and was used to.

As I was gearing up to have the 5th valve added, I learned a couple of important things:

First, the repair person that I had been discussing this project with strongly encouraged using genuine Alexander parts and buying a new (current production) leadpipe with the smaller receiver. Using genuine Alexander parts made sense to me and it was explained that the reason for recommending also buying the leadpipe was so that the original didn't have to be cut. Keeping the original leadpipe in tact would allow the entire procedure to be reversible in the event the operation had a negative impact on the tuba. However, this discussion planted the seed of doubt.

Then I started getting feedback from long time Alexander players. Those players were almost universally opposed to the idea. They explained that if I had a good 4 valve Alexander that I should be thrilled with it and spend the time figuring out how to play it just the way it is. All said they wouldn't risk "messing up" a nice 4 valve Alexander by adding a valve to it. Before anyone dismisses these players as nothing more than old-school ludites, these were people that played, by choice, these instruments for a living in some top-tier ensembles because they liked them. In some cases these players had both 4 and 5 valve Alexanders and actually preferred the 4 valve instruments. I realize that most of those players were from a different era and that they started playing 4 valve Alexanders decades ago when there were fewer choices than today and they had gotten used to them. But still...those players made me realize that while time marches on and these days a 4 valve CC tuba is a rarity, the 4 valve CC tubas that were good tubas years ago are still good tubas today and are very playable just the way they are.

Now, I believe Tom McGrady has added 5th valves to a few different Alexander tubas and has insisted that it has either improved them or at least not made them any worse. He has extensive experience with Alexanders, having owned many of them. It's not that I don't believe him, it's just that he's a braver person than I am to mess with success. I know that he tried out my Alexander prior to me purchasing it and at one point declared (I'm paraphrasing here) something like the most in tune Alexander tuba on the planet with no alternates required - as a 4 valve. (It needed a lot of work when I purchased it, which is why Tom McGrady passed on it).

Ultimately I have been too chicken to have a 5th valve added and have instead just figured it out and gotten used to 4 valves. It's been so long now that playing a five valve CC actually feels strange. So what should you do? Proceed with caution.

[tubamuphone]

If it were an F tuba, I would say yes add the valve, in fact I had a 5th valve added to an old 4-valve Alex F about 20 years ago. On a CC or BBb, especially an Alex that is lighter than most other tubas on the market, you're going to add a lot of weight with a 5th valve and all the extra parts. Response will not be as good. I would venture to guess that it makes less of a difference (response-wise) on a heavier tuba. If you add a 5th valve to a MW or a Willson, it goes from heavy to a little heavier. If you add it to a handmade Alex, it's going to be a noticeable difference and one of my favorite aspects of playing an Alex is that crazy good response.

In my experience, the false tones on 4 valve Alexander CCs are quite good. I've purchased all sorts of parts from Alexander over the years, it's doable, but I don't think the horn will play as well. It won't be bad, you'll have more fingering options, but you'll also notice the response is not quite as good, probably still better than most production model tubas.

JB

[bort2.0]

...words...

Well, you've sealed the deal for me here. Not touching this tuba for anything, any time soon. Might get Lee to bend the receiver a little bit downward (is Don Harry a particularly tall person?)... but otherwise, will leave it alone.

[Stryk]

5 are nice, 4 will work.

[ParLawGod]

I was once told that brass players are only smart enough for 3 valves...

[bort2.0]

I was once told that brass players are only smart enough for 3 valves...

Yeesh... Sorry old school 2-valve drum and bugle corps players...

[Mark E. Chachich]

My opinion:

4 or 5 valves, whatever works for you. The only caution I have is if the tuba works do not put an extra valve on it unless you can undo it if it does not work. As far as the low D flats, both my 4 and 5 valve tubas have good low D flats using 2&3 and I have had to play this note a fair amount of times.

Best,
Mark

[martyneilan]

After playing my big horn for years as a 4 valve (first the original 4 rotors and then 4 pistons) since having Dan get the 5th valve fully operational I could not conceive going back. I like being able to do low register exercises with low D and Db at my fingertips with only minimal slide pulling, and having options for C# and low F# without any slide pulling. Low F had always worked well 124 with 1 pushed in a little, so 45 hasn't been a major gain but gives me another option.

A second slide trigger that shoots all the way out would go a long way for everything except the low Db.

[Estubist]

And most all of the Germans use 4v BBb tubas as their big tuba

I can confirm that

[cjk]

I believe this is similar to what Mark did to one of his Cervenys.

If you 4 valve Alexander guys wanted to have a 5th valve "sometimes", I'd suggest considering ordering parts from Alexander and have a fine brass repairman build you a dependent 5th valve in an additional 4th valve slide.
Keep your original 4th valve slide "as is" and have another made with the 5th in it.

This would probably require a left hand operated 5th valve for it to be easily interchangeable and still allow 4th slide movement.
It's removable for days you don't need or want it.

If it were me, I'd have it be a flat *half* step with slide extensions to a flat whole step, so you could switch whenever one would be preferred over the other.

I find the 2+4 C#/Db to be a more pressing problem than low F most of the time.

But then again, I'm a 5 valve CC person. I view a 4 valve tuba as missing notes. If I had a 4 valve Alex, I'd want to make it a proper 5 valve.

I've owned several 4v CC tubas (a York/Conn Frankentuba, Conn 2j, a B&S 4v CC, a Yamaha 621 CC), but vastly more often than not they tended to not leave the house in favor of a 5v tuba. My first CC tuba had 5 valves, so that feels like home base to me. If I had spent a lot of time playing a 4v CC tuba and had gotten really comfortable with it, I might be more flexible.

[bort2.0]

Thanks CJK. I had forgotten that yoi suggested this to me a while ago. Its a clever idea!

Maybe I'll challenge Norm Epley to come up with something. He's very creative, and does excellent custom work.

[LeMark]

here's a very short video of my dependent 5th valve in action.It was modular, so I could remove it when I didn't need it. I have since moved it to a permanent installation on my 4/4 Amati CC. (that I didn't own yet when the video was taken)

I didn't have a problem with it being dependent, I just thought I should move it to the horn it was designed for (literally)

[tubanews]

5_valves.jpg (34.46 KiB) Viewed 1489 times