POLL ADDED !!! - Holton BB-345 twin-spin (first actual picture on p.2)

[the elephant]

Here is a parts number listing of all Miraphone tuba-sized tubing from the 180 F up to 1" ID. (I do not know whether they make larger or smaller, but this is a good range.)

YB = yellow brass
NS = nickel silver

I assume these are available in gold brass too, but that is only a guess. If you take a few moments to look at the numbers, you will see that a single digit determines the metal type. This digit and its location are consistent for all their parts, so far as I can tell. If digit six is a "2" then the part is made from nickel silver, and if it is a "3" then it is made from yellow brass. As the prices increase slightly just about every fiscal quarter I deleted them. Also, I am not sure that my price is the same as a guy off the street or a large business. Miraphone could have a sliding scale of charges. I do not know.

Model references are in red. All but the biggest ones at the end of this list are sold in 500 mm lengths. The big boys are only sold in 250 mm lengths. Brass are in italics. I have not entered some of these as I have never actually purchased them, so you have to switch the sixth digit to get them in brass, as detailed above.

003612200080
NS
ID - 17.95 mm (.707”)
OD - 18.68 mm (.735”)

003612200081
NS
ID - 18.73 mm (.737”)
OD - 19.50 (.768”)

003612200082 — 186 inner valve slide
NS
ID - 19.54 mm (.769”)
OD - 20.32 mm (.800”)

003613200082 — 186 inner valve slide

YB
ID - 19.54 mm (.769”)
OD - 20.32 mm (.800”)

003612200083 — 186 outer valve slide/inner main slide
NS
ID - 20.35 mm (.801”)
OD - 21.22 mm (.835”)

003613200083 — 186 outer valve slide/inner main slide
YB
ID - 20.35 mm (.801”)
OD - 21.22 mm (.835”)


003612200084
 — 186 outer main slide/190 and 191 inner valve slide
NS
ID - 21.26 mm (.837”)
OD - 21.93 mm (.863”)

003613200084

 — 186 outer main slide/190 and 191 inner valve slide
YB
ID - 21.26 mm (.837”)
OD - 21.93 mm (.863”)

003612200085


 — 190 and 191 outer valve slide
NS
ID - 21.98 mm (.865”)
OD - 22.77 mm (.897”)

003613200085


 — 190 and 191 outer valve slide
YB
ID - 21.98 mm (.865”)
OD - 22.77 mm (.897”)

003612200086
NS
ID - 22.82 mm (.899”)
OD - 23.56 mm (.928”)

003612200087 — Only sold in 250 mm lengths.
NS
ID - 23.59 mm (.929”)
OD - 24.42 mm (.961”)

003612200088 — Only sold in 250 mm lengths.
NS
ID - 24.45 mm (.963”)
OD - 25.32 mm (.997”)

003612200089 — Only sold in 250 mm lengths.
NS
ID - 25.40 mm (1.000”)
OD - 26.31 mm (1.036”)

[the elephant]

I will probably delete the above list later, as I think it is not something I am supposed to share, despite having compiled it myself from statements over the past few years. If it is something you can use then cut and paste it to a note. If not, don't worry about it.

[bloke]

That information is gratefully received.

When I have yanked stuff off of their instruments, I believe I may have noticed that tubing used for circuits - that isn’t slide tubing - is a bit thinner.
Even though their slide tubing thickness isn’t very thick compared to some, the thinner it is, the easier to curve into a bow…certainly when I’m doing it by hand without any of the cool tools that Miraphone owns.
When I had no choice but to make the wide tuning slide bow for my cimbasso, not only did I anneal it out to very soft, but I also sanded it down fairly thin…to about a half a millimeter thickness. Maybe I’m a wimp…(??)
Christian has always been extremely nice to me. Maybe he feels sorry for me, because he knows I’m (not only a wimp, but also) a jerk...(??)

[the elephant]

I have a whole list of parts I have purchased with part numbers if you would like a copy. Let me know.

[bloke]

I would be delighted to have a copy of that.

For quite a few years, I've communicated with Eva and Christian with pictures/measurements accompanied by "Do you have...??" / "Would you make...??"

They're rarely turned me down.

Thank-you, for offering me all of that useful information...

off on a tangent, or two or three tangents ...

Christian has been helping me with my (typical to "kaiser orchester b-tubas") exploration of an EASY work-around for the low 5th partial on the Miraphone 90B.

Though the two pitches are completely corrected, 1-2 and 2-3 are just not very good "blows" on that partial on this instrument.

With the main slide REMARKABLY long, REMARKABLY factory-aligned, and REMARKABLY well-braced, the obvious solution is a right-hand thumb trigger (to pull the main slide in, for those two pitches)...
...but I'm also exploring a 5th "reverse" (tubing take-away) right-hand thumb-operated rotor. One or the other solution will win out over the other.

The only four pitches that REALLY need attention (on that instrument) are the two typical kaiser-flat pitches (D/D-flat) and the mathematically-sharp two 2-4 pitches, and I believe I have a nice solution for that, as well.

With a main-slide-in trigger and a 4th-slide-out (left-hand thumb) spring-loaded thingie, those FOUR pitches' problems are solved, and any other (minor/tweaky) pitch issues can also be addressed. Due to the bell shape (the so-called "smokestack/German" shape...and just as with your own 186 tubas) pitch context clues (from the TYPE of sonority) render any intonation flaws considerably more "naked" (to anyone's ears) than with a typical "wide-belled" tuba...and sure: Those flaws become more easily heard by the PLAYER as well...but - once heard - it's really nice for the PLAYER to be able to DO SOMETHING about them.

...and (after four decades of messing with this crap), I actually do have quite a bit of "stuff"...
As an example...ALL of this "stuff", here, is Miraphone-made .835" bore "stuff".
I don't DARE show pictures of most of my "stuff", because I NEED my "stuff" to fix "stuff", and - if I sell it or give it away - I won't have it anymore...



The things that have made be balk (regarding "setting up" the 90B kaiser tuba for professional use) are
- having to work on other stuff, which is more pressing
- hating to put a torch to such a pretty instrument in even small areas (a hesitancy that must obviously be overcome)

BTW...
Aren't you amazed at how ORGANIZED (and able to address issues with obsolete stuff) that the Miraphone Corporation is?

[the elephant]

Check your PMs.

[tubaing]

The lower #4 slide is was in atrocious (rotten/patched) condition.

I'd love to see a picture of what was under that patch.

[bloke]

LOL...cracks.

You'll have it back in 3D, in the not to distant future...for your sock drawer.

[bloke]

I keep talking about restoring two BB-345 Holton tubas at once (ie. "twin spin"), but all you’ve seen of the second one is an unfinished repair on a bottom bow...so I think everyone deserves to see some of the rest of it...

Yeah...I did some dent removal on this on in the distant past, and shoved it back in the attic (when the bent-up school sousaphones - once again - began marching into the barn).

Again...
The one on the right belongs to a customer, and the one on the left will be offered for sale.
The for-sale one (re: the very large cursive engraving on the bell) was manufactured just a few years before the customer-owned one, but - overall - was found in less-distressed condition (though moot now, as both feature components that are in "nice" shape, yes?)

[York-aholic]

This picture shows the truly legendary inconsistent (factory) building of these Holton 345s. Just look at how much shorter the one on the left is!



It’s almost like they forgot to put the bottom bow on!




Hey, it made me smile...

[bloke]

I was waiting to put up a picture of BB-345-II until I had the bottom bow (mostly straightened out, and shown on a previous page in this thread) finished, but that may not occur for several days, so...

[York-aholic]

No, it’s a good picture.

I just made me remember a gentleman saying that when he went to pick up his CC-345 at the factory there was a second one being finished at the same time and they differed noticeably in height (as do the two CSO Yorks, though I seem to think they weren’t made side by side together as the above mentioned Holtons were).

So the two BB-345 tubas are in good company.

[bloke]

You got me curious...

DIAGONAL bell measurements (from small-end to bell rim) both seem to be approx. 27-1/2", and the top bows also seem similar enough.

The bottom bows don't "look" quite the same (yet: nearly) but seem to measure the same - across.

Likely, one will be best, and the other will be bestest.

[the elephant]

I think that was Alex Cauthen who said that, but honestly, it could have been *anyone* who picked up one that was ordered from the factory as they were made in batches.

Regarding the photo — the top bow on the left looks *normal* and the one on the right looks *Holton-non-proportional* to me. My personal 345 has a top bow like the one on the right.

[bloke]

I HOPE that the one that I'm fixing up for sale plays well, 'cause it ain't gonna sell if it don't play...
As far as the other one is concerned: I'll be paid for it, whether-or-not it plays well.

I think that was Alex Cauthen who said that, but honestly, it could have been *anyone* who picked up one that was ordered from the factory as they were made in batches.

Regarding the photo — the top bow on the left looks *normal* and the one on the right looks *Holton-non-proportional* to me. My personal 345 has a top bow like the one on the right.

[York-aholic]

I think that was Alex Cauthen who said that, but honestly, it could have been *anyone* who picked up one that was ordered from the factory as they were made in batches.

Regarding the photo — the top bow on the left looks *normal* and the one on the right looks *Holton-non-proportional* to me. My personal 345 has a top bow like the one on the right.

Yep, it was Alex C.

[bloke]

Maybe (??) I was spaced out when straightening out the one on the right.

[bloke]

@tubaing

I suspect the owner of this Holton will smile when they see this picture...



I coulda brazed it (formerly: patched), but - well... - what's better than 'new'...?? (not much)"

[tubaing]

Turn around time wasnt too bad for a custom made part being made and shipped across the Atlantic. Nice that it turned out to be single radius like the rest.

[bloke]

That's what I asked for, but I also confessed (when providing spec's) that "beggars can't be choosers".

icing on the cake:
A $5 part (that no USA-located jobbers/parts-resellers stock, and that's just a bit of trouble to duplicate) came with it, which allows me to sell a really pretty/used gold-brass-bell 186 to an eagerly-awaiting local private school band director.
What's even better is that I don't even have to supply a case for the 186, because (not understanding how worn out another of his 186's was) the band director had bought a brand-new case for a not-really-a-viable-repair-candidate 186 (valves are shot, bell is full of cracks, remotely-located cylindrical circuit tubing is crushed, mouthpipe is rotted out, etc.)

My plan is to (since it's close to done) get the for-sale 345's bottom bow slicked out, and get that tuba caught-up to the progress on the customer's tuba, and then (now that the lower #4 crook is here) strip, dent-remove, and align the valveset on the customer instrument (pretty darn big-@$$ job). I know they're eager, so (once I get their instrument all stuck together) I'll probably go ahead and clean it up, so they can decide on what sort of finish they want, and so it will be "ready when they are". After that, I'll (depending on how heavy the school repair demands are) circle back to the "for sale" one, and get THAT one to the finish line as well.
==============================================

Hey...AFTER THESE, I have YET ANOTHER "twin-spin" to take on:
- a CUSTOMER 184 B-flat
- a FOR-SALE 184 B-flat

Just as with pair of Holton 345 tubas, the customer-owned one is more distressed, but they're both be equally nice-looking and viable when their restorations are completed.

I've already got (very kind to me) Mr. Niedermaier working on a "needs" list for both these...

top secret information - only for 'fesshunulz: It's easy to play a "low F" on a B-flat tuba without a 5th valve.