B&S 101 -- what's a good price?

[bort2.0]

What's a good price for an older B&S 101? (What's too much?)

I know of a few, but both seem higher than makes sense to me. Feel free to PM an answer if you don't want to say it publicly.

Thanks!

[hrender]

Ones in very good to excellent condition seem to go for about $3500. Less good ones are under $2k. What’s reasonable is always subjective given comparisons to other models and availability/quality of clones.

[bloke]

The previous is probably pretty darned accurate. With such things, I personally tend to be a "bottom feeder" - particularly now, since (due to "too much stuff awaiting restorations and sale") I've put myself in a semi-moratorium situation, regarding buying stuff like that - PARTICULARLY if it needs "the whole nine yards" restoration-wise.

70's vintage are good...
If you can find one imported by Selmer, USA that is engraved "Meister Gerhard Schneider" - and in remarkably fine condition - most all of those (were) quite good.

The BEST one I ever played was a (yes, it was beat-up, but it was not refinished, the valves were not worn, and there were no holes in it) econoline version with "Weltklang" engraved on the bell. I bought it from that guy in Bulgaria - who was exporting a bunch of ruddy-looking East German and Czech stuff to the USA a couple of decades ago (low prices / low shipping costs). Klaus used to claim that these were made to a lower standard, but not according to how that particular one played. The 5th partial tends to be about "Meinl-Weston 25 low" (lower than with a B-flat Miraphone 186), but - otherwise, I tend to like the B-flat better than I like the B-flat Miraphone 186.

The C version is actually quite different, and features the same bell as was used on the venerable B&S "Symphonie" F tuba.

The replacement version of the 101 was/(is?) is still a good tuba, but liked the old horizontal-main-slide version (with the "open-wrap" 4th circuit) better.

Those tubas were very low-cost (back in the 1970's) but - adjusted for inflation - considerably higher cost (wholesale/dealer/grounded cost) than the Jinbao knock-off costs today. Then again, they were handmade/sheet metal instruments and fabricated by old-world craftsmen - who had a centuries-long legacy of western music brass instrument manufacturing.

There were some interesting tubas that seem to have been (immediately post-unification) cobbled together from Meinl-Weston model 20 bodies (Geretsried) and B&S (Markneukirchen) rotary valvesets - called VMI ("Vogtland Musical instruments"), but I can't be 100% certain from whence the parts designs originated...I'm only saying that "It appeared so to me". It does seem, though, that after reunification, the Geretsried-made rotors sorta evaporated. ie. Try finding a rotor cap for an old pre-reunification Melton/Meinl-Weston (ie. ANTON Meinl) model 20 or 25, etc...

[dp]

I like mine, a lot. Its CC, was 2400 about 5 years ago,
I think it says Giardinelli Sonora on the bell.
Perfectly happy with it as a 4-banger.

I could do with some real "spring-guided 3B linkages" from B&S,
no more of that cheap ass model airplane crap for me...
and hell no to the flexible pot metal chinese nonsense

[greenbean]

I have owned a few. For fun and resale. I tend to see them selling for $1000 to $2000…

[edfirth]

Dan(Tuba Tinker) had one on here a year or so ago that he had recently overhauled and the owner subsequently retired or something, in pretty immaculate shape, even the lacquer for 2600. And he's had several of this model over the years most for less.I love those things. Ed

[bort2.0]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

I'll let you know what comes out of my current idea of the week.

If anybody knows of another one of these that might be for sale, please feel free to let me know. Thanks

[hrender]

The only one I know about is a BBb in NYC:
https://www.jlandressbrass.com/shop/Low ... 515659.htm

Mr. Tuba lists the equivalent model (B&S 3101) on their B&S page, although I don't know if it's really available or would be a special order. The 3103, which is similar, goes for >$10K on WWBW.

[bloke]

I thinking that Giardinelli was selling those for around $700 in the mid-1970’s.
(I was loading trucks at a SEARS warehouse for around two bucks an hour, as were young men supporting families.)

$700 would be buying equivalent of at least $3600 today. (I recall an English sports car being advertised on TV commercials for $1995.)

I judge the 101 to be a better instrument (comparing new to new) than the replacement 103 - whether costing $3600 or (as the 103 is currently advertised) three times that amount. To me, the 103 simply features several economizing changes in design including overall wrap, 4th circuit wrap, and hydraulically-formed bows.

I’m still seeing the Asia 101 knock-offs (not bad, but - ignoring any valve/slide issues) also don’t play as well as real 101’s) for around $2000, yes? Even with the better-put-together of the knock-offs, I sense the superior design of the 101, compared to the 103.

[bort2.0]

Thanks Hal... That's definitely one that I've been thinking about. Beautiful condition, but hard to resolve the price when I add in shipping and a gig bag. Time capsule tubas come at a premium, and they are what they are.

I know of one other 101 right now, also in NY, in so-so condition and too expensive.

I also know these pop up in about 20 different stencil names, so it's just a matter of time before the next one rolls around.

Thanks!

[hrender]

Thanks Hal... That's definitely one that I've been thinking about. Beautiful condition, but hard to resolve the price when I add in shipping and a gig bag. Time capsule tubas come at a premium, and they are what they are.

Many years ago, I asked the realtor who sold me my house (built in 1948) why older houses seemed to fetch higher sq-ft prices than new homes. He responded, "It's because they're not building them anymore." I think the same applies to older horns.

When buying something older, it's better to consider its value not based on what it originally cost but based on its current condition and quality. In this case, "How much would it cost to get a new(er) horn whose playing condition+quality was as good or better?" I listed the price of a new 3103 just as a reference point. The Giardinelli horn isn't cheap, but I think the price is fair. If you're patient and cool (like in McElligot's Pool), a cheaper one will likely come along, but it may take a while. My biggest concern with the Giardinelli would be getting the thing to me in an undamaged state.

It's funny, I bought my first horn (a YBB-641) back in 1979 out of a catalog at a local music store to prepare for college auditions. My alternative was to use a school-owned 2XJ which I didn't much like. After passing the audtion, my new tuba instructor said I should have waited, as he would have taken me to Giardinelli's to try a bunch of horns and pick the best one out. I wonder if one of these would have been part of the inventory back then.

[DandyZ629]

I always found them to be kind of a "Baby Alexander." Not quite as much "snarl" when pushed, but they sound really great. Good luck with your search!

[KingTuba1241X]

The only one I know about is a BBb in NYC:
https://www.jlandressbrass.com/shop/Low ... 515659.htm

Mr. Tuba lists the equivalent model (B&S 3101) on their B&S page, although I don't know if it's really available or would be a special order. The 3103, which is similar, goes for >$10K on WWBW.

Surprised they call it a "Kaiser" tuba when it's clearly just a tall 4/4 horn and a (smallish rotary bore).

[bort2.0]

The only one I know about is a BBb in NYC:
https://www.jlandressbrass.com/shop/Low ... 515659.htm

Mr. Tuba lists the equivalent model (B&S 3101) on their B&S page, although I don't know if it's really available or would be a special order. The 3103, which is similar, goes for >$10K on WWBW.

Surprised they call it a "Kaiser" tuba when it's clearly just a tall 4/4 horn and a (smallish rotary bore).

Landress is a trumpet guy, so let's give him a break. :)

[KingTuba1241X]

The only one I know about is a BBb in NYC:
https://www.jlandressbrass.com/shop/Low ... 515659.htm

Mr. Tuba lists the equivalent model (B&S 3101) on their B&S page, although I don't know if it's really available or would be a special order. The 3103, which is similar, goes for >$10K on WWBW.

Surprised they call it a "Kaiser" tuba when it's clearly just a tall 4/4 horn and a (smallish rotary bore).

Landress is a trumpet guy, so let's give him a break. :)

Like when eBay sellers call baritones, (tubas)...

[hrender]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Handmade-in-Ge ... 4126753887

[bloke]

Seamed sheet metal tubas come at a premium these days, but those are B-flat, dented, and not shiny, so the market doesn’t drive their prices up.

People like shiny, and people respond to carnival barking, as well as “C” and “huge”.

... If I owned forty or fifty tubas, a nice 101 would be one of those instruments, but I do not wish to own forty or fifty tubas, for the same reason that I don’t believe that really good playing instruments belong in that museum in Carolina (ie. Most of them would go to waste.)