What tuba would you buy without playtesting

[the elephant]

I have owned about two dozen tubas in my life. Only two were new. I don't buy horns untested because they are always used and have a past that led up to the owner deciding for whatever reason to sell them.

That being said, I would always trust the newer, larger-belled (and more vanilla) 186 CC and *any* 188. I also trust King 2341s (old and new) to be a known quantity, even if I do not want one for myself. I can trust these horns to play just about exactly the same as most others of their model. This is not to say they are the best, but they are predictable, which is what you want if you are having to buy something untested.

[bone-a-phone]

I don't live in a place where I can play test a lot of instruments, so I've bought literally dozens of horns without a play test. I've only really been burned a couple of times, but in the end, I rarely wind up keeping horns. You can't really get to know a horn in an hour, it takes probably weeks to really understand how it reacts, and you have to own a horn to get that much time on it. Intonation, particularly for valve instruments, is mostly a function of the player anyway. You know a valve instrument is mathematically out of tune just by the fact that it has valves. Some horns can be so out of tune as to be unplayable, but nothing is truly point and shoot, so intonation is on my list, but it's under sound and physical condition.

[Doc]

I have a much older tuba friend who always comments on how the newer generation of tuba players are blatting or playing the lower register too bright. He would make these comments not just about college kids but also a few of the new hotter names today.

I thought he was just being an old curmudgeon until I went to the army tuba conference and listened to a player lay down what simply sounded like a warm organ. I never forgot that sound because it didn't stand out but it was present similarly how the low notes of an organ are.

If controlled and tempered, even that has its place (but not often).
ex: low D-sharp in "Uranus" (but even THAT should have some breadth and broadness incorporated into it)

The recording engineer for the IRIS Orchestra (a low brass player) told me that he likes listening to me in his headphones, because (obviously, unless very rarely called for) I don't do that sh!t "..as do many of the tuba players do in other orchestras I record". ...' goes with out saying: I took that as a huge compliment.

I view this as something that might be used as an occasional effect with specific purpose, but not an acceptable method for normal low register playing. A small, clear edge/pointedness on the front end can be perfectly fine (think: Puttkamer or Halwax stepping on the gas w/ a big German BBb), but smacky, cutting, nothing-but-edge-noise-racket is not.

Pardon the associated rant...
Go to any conference, and you'll hear young players (and sometimes older ones who should know better) murdering unsuspecting valkyries and destroying Roman fountains with low end nuclear bi+chslap smack (not to mention horrible intonation, unmusical sound, and incorrect rhythm). Hey, it's one thing during testing to find the limits of what you can do in the low range of a particular instrument and adjust accordingly, and it's another to be a vulgar violator of tubas because you're an ignorant dip$H!+.

To the OP:

A straight-up order from a dealer with no testing and no opinions from trusted players on the other end of the deal, and considering the horns are in proper working condition, here's my short list:

CC tuba: Miraphone 188 - I know of no other CC that is so consistent with point-and-shoot intonation, playability, and build/fitment.

BBb tuba: Miraphone 186 - Always a safe buy for the same reasons. King 2341 is almost always a solid buy also with good intonation.

Eb tuba: JP 377 and Miraphone Norwegian Star - intonation, build, and consistency

F tuba: PT 15/16, Miraphone Firebird - Whether you prefer them or not, PTs always seem to play consistently the same, so you can pretty much know what you are getting. For intonation, consistency, and dreamy valves, the Firebird beats anything I've ever played. I'd buy an Elektra without testing also.

[Ace]

Miraphone 188.

I got mine about twenty years ago from a guy in Wisconsin who posted it online but got no nibbles except my own. It was a gold brass beauty, very lightly and gently used. Came with a new Cronkite leather bag. My total cost including shipping was $5500. That was my best tuba deal ever. Sadly, I decided to sell it and buy a new very good-playing Miraphone 1291 5VC which I got new from WW&BW for $6300. Roger Lewis guided me in that sale.

I would love to get another Miraphone 188.

Ace

[bloke]

A few years ago, I bought a model 2155 to flip. It was a new condition. It played so well in tune that I was tempted to keep it, but the overriding positives of my 5450 – along with the considerable profit available - nixed that idea.
I met the seller in a parking lot in Missouri (near the bootheel - actually at Lambert’s “throwed rolls restaurant) and could have played tested it, but did not.
That instrument now serves the Canadian military.

[Mary Ann]

I am waiting for final price for shipping for a used Bombino. Based on "maybe I can manage it," the fact that it was chosen out of a group of 12 by an employee, and its reputation for...wait for it...very good intonation, which is my top criterion. That and whether I have the air to blow it. And after the NStar I realized Eb is my best bugle length.

[Stryk]

All of them....

[Sousaswag]

I think this is a great question. I've never bought a new tuba, and really don't plan to. I didn't have any opportunity to play test my 5450 before buying it, but I discussed with several professors of tuba that I've worked with over the years, and ultimately pulled the trigger. I also trusted the seller, as well. Due to covid/location a play test just wasn't possible. Life is too short to miss out on these little things. If the tuba wasn't what I expected it to be, someone else would have bought it from me for what I paid, so I wasn't worried about it one bit.

Professionals are a GREAT resource for those of us making any sort of purchase in the tuba world, and I haven't made a purchase where I haven't consulted SOMEBODY that I trusted

[bloke]

I think this is a great question. I've never bought a new tuba, and really don't plan to. I didn't have any opportunity to play test my 5450 before buying it, but I discussed with several professors of tuba that I've worked with over the years, and ultimately pulled the trigger. I also trusted the seller, as well. Due to covid/location a play test just wasn't possible. Life is too short to miss out on these little things. If the tuba wasn't what I expected it to be, someone else would have bought it from me for what I paid, so I wasn't worried about it one bit.

Professionals are a GREAT resource for those of us making any sort of purchase in the tuba world, and I haven't made a purchase where I haven't consulted SOMEBODY that I trusted

I bought my (used, and from the first batch shipped to the USA) 5450 after a short play-test.
The valves were terrible, and small dents had been hidden from pictures in the ad.

As the rush to supply the epic demand (as I had actually sold a couple of new ones) seemed to have brought about assembly issues - and the SONIC and RESPONSE characteristics - along with slide alignment - of the USED one (that I was about to buy) *matched those of the near-prototype one (that I had previously tested thoroughly at a regional tuba-shindig display), I bought it anyway.

The valve and minor dent issues took me an hour or so to address, once I got home with it.

(I wonder how many "gems" are passed over by frightened-off potential buyers, because of things that require simple fixes.)

...Even ON THE WAY to buy mine, I took a five-hour detour up to "TubaDome" and The Brasswind (actually, it wasn't much of a detour, as I also had plating work to drop off at Anderson) to check out in-stock new 5450 tubas.
Those disappointed, and (on my way to look at the used one that I bought - and still own) I hoped that it would not disappoint, as did those.
______________________________________________________

*

[Mary Ann]

I am waiting for final price for shipping for a used Bombino. Based on "maybe I can manage it," the fact that it was chosen out of a group of 12 by an employee, and its reputation for...wait for it...very good intonation, which is my top criterion. That and whether I have the air to blow it. And after the NStar I realized Eb is my best bugle length.

So....seller is wanting to just ship it in the hard case, and I don't know know with whom. I said WHAT? And he said "lots of people are shipping tubas in just the hard case." I still say WHAT? (or two of those letters plus an F) Anyone heard of that? I can't imagine receiving anything at my end that looks like what was sent at his end.

[Three Valves]

In it’s case surrounded by foam in a box.

Case only??

Pfffft….

[donn]

My much bigger tuba came in its case. I wasn't super worried, because it was already smashed! :) But it was OK. I believe the seller took my my packing advice, because if I remember right it came with the classic beach ball in the bell ... albeit not inflated, so that wasn't worth much. But there was a reasonable amount of bubble wrap inside the case, as well as lots outside.

The real goal, it seems to me, is lots of soft padding to distribute force including over time. It's harder to do that inside the case, because certain points like the bell rim etc. will be much close to the force than the rest, so ideally you want a lot of really tight packing that jams the tuba in at all points. But really luxurious packing between the case and the box makes that less important. You have the advantage here that your preference in tubas leans towards the lighter ones, so yours will travel better.

[greenbean]

... he said "lots of people are shipping tubas in just the hard case." ... Anyone heard of that?
...

I have not only heard of that - I have participated in it. Sending and receiving. With success using both FedEx and Greyhound. I figure it is better to have goons moving the case on/off a bus/truck using the handle than wrestling with a oversized box and maybe a hand truck or dolly of some sort...

[York-aholic]

... he said "lots of people are shipping tubas in just the hard case." ... Anyone heard of that?
...

I have not only heard of that - I have participated in it. Sending and receiving. With success using both FedEx and Greyhound. I figure it is better to have goons moving the case on/off a bus/truck using the handle than wrestling with a oversized box and maybe a hand truck or dolly of some sort...

Agree. However, I worry that sending it in a case is advertising it as "Free Tuba", especially given Greyhound's stellar tracking system. But from a handling standpoint, I agree.

[Rick Denney]

...
Pardon the associated rant...
Go to any conference, and you'll hear young players (and sometimes older ones who should know better) murdering unsuspecting valkyries and destroying Roman fountains with low end nuclear bi+chslap smack (not to mention horrible intonation, unmusical sound, and incorrect rhythm). Hey, it's one thing during testing to find the limits of what you can do in the low range of a particular instrument and adjust accordingly, and it's another to be a vulgar violator of tubas because you're an ignorant dip$H!+.

Those who use the Elephant Room to show off end up demonstrating their weaknesses, writ large. If they use the Elephant Room to test instruments within their capabilities, they actually end up showing off without intending to show off. To that end, I would never play orchestral excerpts, especially in their entirety. I will play the occasional lick that gives me problems, taking out the problem part as much as possible from the surrounding excerpt. I recognize that whatever I do in the Elephant Room is fundamentally embarrassing.

To the OP: I look for unique buying opportunities, and usually that happens in person. I'm not "in the market" until I play an instrument that presents itself as compelling. I will and have sought advice from others, and a pro who is familiar with my playing and intentions might give me advice that I accept at face value. Even some of those have not left me with tubas that I kept for a long period. I identify with Wade--most of my tubas were bought used and I didn't know they were even available or that I might want them more than a day before playing them.

I have bought some tubas online, including my current F tuba. But I spent several weeks comparing it with what I had before deciding to keep it. If it had not worked out, I'd have simply sold it on--buying used usually means not losing too much in the trial.

I can't think of a single instrument that I would consider a keeper without a test. The 186 and King 2341 tubas that are mentioned a lot in this thread are pretty consistent, but even those examples sometimes howl at the moon. A band buddy bought a 2341 a while back that was a disaster, and he had to return it for a replacement at the expense of a lot of bother. He'd have rejected out of hand it during a play test, which he hadn't done out of convenience. Well, returning it was a lot less convenient, as it turned out. And 186's have been made forever and in great quantity--the design is robust but not every example has survived the ages.

At the right price, it's worth the risk, but for me, time is precious, too, and wasting time on shipping in a tuba that then has to be returned or sold on isn't the business I'm in.

Rick "whose tubas bought without testing are mostly either long gone or are sitting in their cases" Denney

[iiipopes]

I recently purchased a Jupiter JTU 1100 without play testing. However:
1) The deal was too good to pass up, with the price two months ago a full 1/4 lower than current pricing, along with 24-month no interest financing (Hey - even though I have the cash, there's no good reason for them to get my money any sooner than necessary).
2) I bought it from a vendor that has a no questions - no conditions return policy to the local store.
It turned out to be the perfect purchase. But for these two conditions, I would not have purchased it. Indeed, the same deal was being offered through another vendor, but the return policy had hoops to jump through. Hmm. Upon taking delivery, the two companies must have a co-op agreement, because the origin of shipping from the vendor I purchased it from was the warehouse operated by the second vendor!

[Furguson11]

The one with the good return policy or where the price was so low that I could flip it if needed.

[bloke]

Unless someone’s (a more extreme example) in Miami and a tuba is in Seattle, it might not (??) take any more time - in actual total hours - to drive to a tuba and test it prior to purchasing it or not purchasing it.

When a buyer chooses to have me ship them a 4/4-size-or-larger tuba in a hard case - whereby hard plastic or wood is only two or three inches away from a bell’s rim, I have them mail me a waiver of responsibility, and an expression to agree to except the shipped instrument in as-arrives condition. The only option – if they don’t want to sign such a paper - is for me to palletize it, and ship it via common carrier.
The tiny amount of padding - between the bell end of a hard case and the bell rim - compresses to a very hard substance, when cases are dropped bell-first from only a very few feet.

With small tubas, the ratio of the thickness of a bell’s sheet metal to the size of the bell is more favorable, and there is less chance of creasing upon impact.

[Rick Denney]

Unless someone’s (a more extreme example) in Miami and a tuba is in Seattle, it might not (??) take any more time - in actual total hours - to drive to a tuba and test it prior to purchasing it or not purchasing it.

When a buyer chooses to have me ship them a 4/4-size-or-larger tuba in a hard case - whereby hard plastic or wood is only two or three inches away from a bell’s rim, I have them mail me a waiver of responsibility, and an expression to agree to except the shipped instrument in as-arrives condition. The only option – if they don’t want to sign such a paper - is for me to palletize it, and ship it via common carrier.
The tiny amount of padding - between the bell end of a hard case and the bell rim - compresses to a very hard substance, when cases are dropped bell-first from only a very few feet.

With small tubas, the ratio of the thickness of a bell’s sheet metal to the size of the bell is more favorable, and there is less chance of creasing upon impact.

[continuation of sidebar]

When I box up a tuba, I leave the bell in free air. I wish cases were designed that way. The old trick of inflating a volleyball in the bell throat is based on this--it lifts the bell off the flat surface of the end of the case, and supports it where there is hoop strength (brass in pure tension) rather than edge strength (brass in bending).

Rick "[/continuation of sidebar]" Denney

[bloke]

yes to all.

I've torn the padding out of the bell-end of a couple of my hard cases, and added a bolted-or-riveted-in velcro strap (around the bottom bow) at the opposite end.

All of that having been stated and agreed upon, "the forklift" is the "hydrogen bomb of tuba-shipping"...

...which is why (pre-worldwide collapse of most everything) I chose (and with all of their shortcomings) Greyhound.