popular narrative: "Old Miraphone DVS linkage is crap"

[bloke]

bullet points:

- I've not had enough bad experiences to label it "crap".
- Just as with most other things, I've seen school-owned ones torn up in a year or two, and personally-owned ones last decades.
- A friend just bought a 1980's (sheet metal) 188 with the original DVS (white plastic) linkage. It's quiet, works perfectly, and I don't see a reason to sell him replacements, nor to tear it off and stick on Minibal links.
- Minibal links are in vogue (as are lap sousaphones), and have been - now - for some time.
- Fake Minibal links tend to be crappy, and other plastic links are hit-and-miss...Just as with all sorts of other things.
- I have seen broken-off DVS links and failed-seam DVS links...again: occasionally, and (mostly) school-owned/abused instruments which were otherwise torn up. There isn't a product out there that doesn't eventually fail OR that is occasionally fabricated poorly. Though rarely, I've received brand-new Minibal links that don't turn...and sure: I received replacements - along with nice apologies.
- I have a 1960's Miraphone 5V C here, which was (obviously) converted to DVS (an easy conversion from S-arm) in the 1970's or later. The old (white) plastic links all still appear to be good, but I bought these new (grey plastic) ones, just in case. (I'm not offering that tuba for sale, it in not in ready-to-sale condition, and I'm not offering to sell it "as-is".)
- If I bought a Miraphone tuba with old-old/white DVS links - and they all behaved well (with no signs of failure), I would USE and NOT replace them.
- DVS links always offer a good touch, and are always quiet. Further, they are adjustable, YET (as the adjustment screws don't back out) stay in adjustment. Any noisy tubas with these links - serviced here - have always been due to rotor wear or other issues.
- Even Minibal brand links (still: metal-to-metal, though superb tolerances - yet non-adjustable) eventually eventually wear, and begin to click.
- I'm not one who immediately assumes that new/expensive/European-made is going to make me happier than stuff that's functioning beautifully, and shows no signs of fatigue/failure.
- I'll glad to tear stuff off other's instruments, and do a conversion (as I like having groceries and keeping the lights on), but - sometimes (not always) I'm SMH while doing them. Even S-arm linkage can be tightened back up to spec's and made silent (for years, not just months) again.
...and some will completely disagree.



I bought these goofy Mira-guides to keep here - if needed for repairs
I bought these DVS links to keep here - if needed for repairs.
(as there are two or three LOCAL instruments which still sport ORIGINAL 1980's DVS white links...
...I'm not a parts jobber.)
I try to avoid buying parts from parts jobbers, because they tend to double their cost (from manufacturers) and "re-wholesale".


for the nosy: Also received with this order were...
- a old-old/new-stock "E 56" Miraphone kaiser bariton mouthpiece with intermediate shank
- some custom-drawn nickel-brass slide tubing (to correct a tuning issue on a not-Miraphone personal instrument)
- a couple of partially-manufactured rotor stop arms (which require my customization)
- an adjustable thumb ring and knurled nut (duh: as these are so often broken/missing)

[KingTuba1241X]

When did Miraphone switch out to their "proprietary" minibal system you see on their tubas now from this DVS system?

[bloke]

Decades ago, I was a Miraphone dealer, but - since that time - I only see changes when someone FUBAR's the "new stuff" and brings it in to be straightened back out, so...I'm not a person who possesses the answer to that question.

[bloke]

I'd rather have the white DVS than the Grey plastic ones they offered in the 90's. Those things were a brittle nightmare

[bloke]

They are still grey.
I agree that those 30-years-ago grey ones were prone to breakage...and (I guess...??)
I'll find out if these current grey ones are the same - or whether they are an improved formation of "grey".

I've noticed that the German piston guides (supplied with the Meinlschmidt aftermarket pistons, which fit Markneukirchen-fabricated instruments) are also grey plastic.

I'd rather have the white DVS than the Grey plastic ones they offered in the 90's. Those things were a brittle nightmare

[windshieldbug]

I will admit to owning a mid 70's 184 that came with DVS linkage.
Still on there and still going strong.

[matt g]

I'd rather have the white DVS than the Grey plastic ones they offered in the 90's. Those things were a brittle nightmare

Amen. I was shocked by how poorly these held up.

[Stryk]

Mine is 35 years old and works as new.

[tofu]

.

[pjv]

Quiet
Quick
Reliable
Adjustable
and they feel great

Minnick put them on my B&S Symphonie somewhere around 1980 or earlier: that's at least 41 years ago!

So yeah, I've heard people say they're crap. I just smile politely.

[Doc]

I had the white ones on my 188 I bought new in 1987. They worked flawlessly. I never understood why people complained about them.

[LeMark]

New miraphone, all metal linkage. Haven't seen any plastic in 20 years

[bloke]

yes/correct on all counts...and nice picture...

...my point being that the WHITE (nylon?) DVS links (so far, on MANY instruments)
are still in great condition after NEARLY FIFTY YEARS.

New miraphone, all metal linkage. Haven't seen any plastic in 20 years

The WORST and most-likely-to-break - in my (repair-guy) experience - were (some years ago) the small BLACK PLASTIC links they used, which were virtually identical in shape/size/appearance (other than being black plastic, rather than metal) to the current Minibal links that they use.

[bloke]

I was confused when you said "they are still Grey" like new ones were still being shipped with plastic

[bloke]

Miraphone still supplies DVS links (replacement parts), and they are still (the second color that they were) grey plastic.

' clear now?

I was confused when you said "they are still Grey" like new ones were still being shipped with plastic

those horrid black-plastic tiny Minibal-looking (or possibly were made by Minibal?) things...
I haven't asked Miraphone, but I sorta doubt that they supply those, anymore...(??)

[KingTuba1241X]

Just figured out (a guess but a good one), that the S-Links went to the White DVS caps somewhere between 73' and 75'...

This is a 1975 and it has grey and white mixed DVS links on it it appears (unless the old man who owned it swapped them out early on, which I doubt)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255196567231

[Rick Denney]

When I traded for my ca. 1980ish Miraphone, it had those white nylon DVS ball links.

And three of the four of them were split open around the plastic adjuster screw. I don't know what caused that--it may be that the lithium grease I found in them had attacked the plastic (though Nylon is waxy and generally impervious to such), or it may have been prior abuse.

At the time, I lived in San Antonio at the same time that Jim Gavigan (Orpheus Music), who had recently moved there from Sunnyvale, was the Miraphone importer, or had just stopped being so and still had a vast stock of suff. So, I might have been able to get whatever parts I needed pretty easily, had I known. (I did get a nice, adjustable thumb ring to replace the fixed ring.) But the pin-and-tube arrangement on the other end was also rattly. I had already converted the linkages on a Sanders (Cerveny), which had been done, probably by Custom, with the insufficient 2-56 threaded-rod plastic ball ends. And I had converted the linkages on a friends Rudi, so I knew where to get the parts and how to approach the project.

(I know the repair guys all huff and puff about how good the pin-and-tube S-links are, but they usually aren't. In my experience, they are old, worn, rattly, and noisy. And the stuff the experts do to restore them up isn't necessarily available in places where the experts aren't. Also, Al Gore had not yet created the internet back then, so it was hard to develop any awareness of the alternatives. God forbid the TUBA Journal of those days would actually publish repair articles to provide that information--that would have been--and still would be--a great ongoing column.)

So, I replaced them with the larger Du-Bro ball ends, just as I've done on many other tubas, and they worked great for me for 25 years, and I'm sure are still working great for its current owner.

In theory, plastic is better for this, given that it is somewhat self-lubricating and also resistant to wear. But when they break, they have to be replaced. And they surely do look much better from a distance.

The only thing I really missed about those particular DVS linkages was the pretty machining on the rod.

Rick "of all the Bb Miraphones I have played over the years, that was one of them" Denney

[bort2.0]

How difficult IS it to repair and maintain properly repaired and quieted S links?

That is, if S links are repaired the right way and are nice and quiet... how hard is it to keep them this way?

And are the S links heavier (weight or feel) than the other kinds?

Asking for a friend...

[KingTuba1241X]

How difficult IS it to repair and maintain properly repaired and quieted S links?

That is, if S links are repaired the right way and are nice and quiet... how hard is it to keep them this way?

And are the S links heavier (weight or feel) than the other kinds?

Asking for a friend...

The ones on the horn I am currently selling that Dan Schultz refurbed are more quiet and fast than a church mouse. Whatever he did to them, my goodness..they are probably better than new. Just keep a few dabs of Hetman bearing and linkage oil on all the moving parts and they should be good forever.

[bloke]

Quieting S-arm linkage simply involves tapping (carefully, and testing as it is done - so as to not over-tighten) on the heads of those silver-soldered-in-place screws (in the T-joints) on top of those thin brass washers. Once the play is removed from the T-joints, the nylon bushings - in the ends of the S-arms - need to be replaced with new ($2 ea.) ones…and fitted. Admittedly, that involves heat, a file, carefully selecting a drill bit, and carefully drilling…(oh yeah: and probably putting on the dime-store reading glasses).
If the original bearings in the ends of the S-arms are bronze or steel, those need to be drilled out and replaced with the Miraphone nylon bushings.

I can actually do this without taking the levers off of the lever carriages.

Again…High-grade all-metal non-adjustable links remain quiet for a long time, but not forever…and they are not cheap.

I’ve typed this way too many times, but the vast majority of valve noise (assuming not some “forgot to plug it in“ type of issue - such as loose screws or horribly worn bumpers) is in the valve itself…

…and I already knew that engineers like to replace stuff rather than fix stuff.

I agree that S-arms are beautiful in appearance, and – particularly if the system is outside-sprung - a damn shame to tear them off.
(When Bill has recorded with his 52-years-old original S-arm system instrument, how much linkage noise have you heard on those recordings?)