POLL ADDED !!! - Holton BB-345 twin-spin (first actual picture on p.2)

[bloke]

Thank-you for the kind words.
Just like @the elephant, it drives me nuts to look at crooked stuff, and even more so when it’s me who stuck it together… and even when there’s no choice, because then I think about the manufacturers - and all their cool tools whereby they could “choose“.
————-
Even when doing hurried/limited budget school repairs, there’s a bunch of stuff that I do - for the sake of my own mental health (ie. “amidst chaos, at least I can exercise a little bit of control over this”) - that very few others would likely notice (yeah: Wade would, but wouldn’t say anything)…

…and hey: not only this big one, but my own little Holton also features old/repaired brass tubes, instead of nice perfect/new nickel tubes.

I admire his pickiness: I asked if he had any leftover slide material (of a particular size) that I needed for another job, he went on to explain that he did, but that it was imperfect In some really minute way, sent it to me, and I didn’t see anything wrong with it at all…

…and there’s no ribbing going on here, but just admiration of someone who probably can out-picky me.

[bloke]

I'm currently warming up the room to 69° (censored ) degrees for an over-all-length-of-the-tuba test (prior to pushing towards the finish line). The mouthpipe tube is dent-free (mouthpipe dents hurriedly removed, as Mrs. bloke was impatiently waiting to hold this thing - as a failsafe against disaster), The mouthpipe-to-valve-block joint is only taped, and the bell-to-bow joint is tacked in two places, but also taped. There's also a piece of tape over the main slide waterkey nipple.

(The bell brace is completely/nicely soldered to the upper bow but only tacked to the bell. Again, I'm toying with the idea of removing the bell/mouthpipe from everything else, bead-blasting the bell/mouthpipe separately (as the rest will be SO MUCH EASIER to deal with (without the bell attached), reattach the two sectors, and then touch up the bead-blast at the connections.)

I'm not interested in any of the circuit lengths, right now (and the instrument's owner expressed no concerns, regarding any of those), but only the OVERALL tuning level (hopefully +/- A=440).



JUST FOR FUN, I took another picture of it next to my own squatty 1960's Holton...
It holds it own surprisingly well, does it not?



Finally,
I think this is pretty cool, as they don't all have this (hand-engraved, and not stamped) on them:



OK...The thermostat is now reading 68°, and the place where my chair is located is much closer to an HVAC register than the thermostat...so I'm going to give it a shot...

===================================================

TEST COMPLETED:
I now see why (beyond esoteric reasons) why the instrument's owner asked me to install new main slide INSIDE slide tubes (requiring me to scrounge some that actually FIT this instrument) which consume the entire AVAILABLE length offered by the OUTSIDE slide tubes.
I had to pull out about an INCH to get here (and/but there's yet another 1-1/2 inches available, to allow for outdoor/crazy-hot/in-the-sun read: MILITARY GIGS playing)

I believe this will do just fine.
Mrs. bloke crashed (got up early, and REALLY needed a nap), so I had to play, keep the valves from falling down (no springs nor back caps) and hold the camera...so this is far from my best "sounde productionee", but good enough to test the instrument...and I believe this tuba is capable of ALSO (either) playing stupid-sharp (or) - being pushed in to dealing with COLD (perhaps down below 60°...?? as well)...as well as offering enough additional"pull" to play with a not-recently-tuned (flat) piano.

The "slots" are barn-door wide, so it should be a (quoting Bill Bell, here...) "breeze to play this tuba".
Moreover, I can't be "lipping" stuff in tune, if I'm ACTUALLY trying to TEST its open tuning.

>> https://imgur.com/a/GrlZNDO

[tubaing]

The "slots" are barn-door wide, so it should be a (quoting Bill Bell, here...) "breeze to play this tuba".
Moreover, I can't be "lipping" stuff in tune, if I'm ACTUALLY trying to TEST its open tuning.

>> https://imgur.com/a/GrlZNDO

Looks like the good tuning tendencies survived. To me, this was the moment of truth.

[bloke]

Also...
Mrs. bloke's eye re-positioned the bell engraving.
Quite often, Holton seemed to engrave the bells of these off to the SIDE, as if advertising the brand to the instrument owner's band section mate to their right. This position is approximately 1-1/4 inches INWARD from where it was before...so the original mouthpipe receiver flange solder "cuts" (though not deep) can be seen.

I may not (??) have put this thing together as Tubagoddh intended, but I did my best.
The casings are somewhat close to square with the bottom bow, and the mouthpipe is no longer required to smash into the portion of the #4 circuit tubing (over which it passes) in order to make it over to the tangent of the bell...





There's at least a couple of shirt-cardboards' space, between these:

[tubaing]

The "slots" are barn-door wide, so it should be a (quoting Bill Bell, here...) "breeze to play this tuba".

Some of you may know of my story with this tuba... that I played this tuba while I was in middle school. This was the at home practice tuba that I much preferred over the brand new, expensive Miraphone 82A 3/4 BBb that I played in school.

After a bunch of years of fondly remembering how the Holton 345 played and hoping to satisfy the itch (I hadn't played many 6/4s since then), I bought a used BMB 6/4 CC (no chance to play test before purchase) and liked some things (mostly how nimble the upper range was) but mostly didn't like it. I thought that I must have not have been as discerning when I was younger.

When my middle school band director was retiring a bunch of us alumni came to a concert and forced a baton in her hand as we made her conduct for us one last time. After the show I found the old Holton sitting in a storage room in about the same condition as when I last saw it 12 years earlier.

The valves were stuck but I put my mouthpiece in and played the open notes. I was nervous that I would be underwhelmed (maybe now that I have a more discerning ear and have played many more tubas, this one wouldnt hold up) like I was with the BMB, but it was like an old friend. Amazing sound. Good tuning. Quick response. Big slots.

[bloke]

moving on...

Today, I'm going to see about
- final slide alignment checks, and lapping them in (no brand-new tubing here...with everything having to have been repaired and re-rounded)
- piston valve guide replacement (sorta involved...)
- check over for missed or clumsy-bloke tiny ping dents
- if satisfied with everything, harden the solder joint on the SMALL side of the bottom bow (leaving the large side "tacked")

The owner also mentioned a "piston whistling noise". I don't know if I can address that, but will look into it.

The pistons/casings on this instrument are remarkably fine, so (though no valve building work) this instrument will NOT end up being one of those (sadly: typical) "smooth shiny worthless pieces of old 6/4 crap".

When this thing makes it to the "ready for a finish" stage, I'm sticking it in a HARD case, to await that procedure.

[bloke]

I plan to record Pictures, the Ride, Fountains, Meistersinger, Prokofiev V, and twenty other excerpts with it, today…
…or perhaps not.

[Doc]

…Prokofiev V…

This would be the excerpt to consider with a 6/4 BBb. Specifically the low Eb. The rest of the except is really in the wheelhouse of a big BBb tuba but that pesky low Eb has either gotta be played open (usually in tune but sometimes not the right resonance since it’s a non-integer mode or whatever) or 124 (pushed in 1st) or 14 (long pull 1st) to get full resonance but with pitch in mind.

Lots of pros have sought out big BBb tubas in recent years specifically for works like Prok V, and as such, have created a stronger market for 5 valve variants.

[bloke]

BB-345 tubas feature remarkably long #1 slides.
I’m going to have this thing together later today, and will toot on it a little bit…not just open overtones, and I will check that out. I believe – on this instrument – it’s a “real note” with #1 pulled about as far as it can be pulled.
All of that having been said, I have to believe that any early Russian performances were played on B-flat tubas, and that they probably were not equipped with five valves.
I could be convinced - by someone knowledgeable - that “quint“ valves were in use, occasionally…

[matt g]

I’m sure there’s plenty of pull on #1 as you surmise. It’s similar for the 2165 which has some heavy influence from the Holton.

[bloke]

Waterkeys are in place and - considering that some of the outside slide tubes were not just dented, but also very slightly bent - I'm really satisfied with how they're all moving, and I believe I've got them (particularly upper #1 and #4 to just about the same extent) "flying" nicely.
#3 works pretty well, but (as 2-3's all seem to line up fairly well) I'm thinking that the instrument's owner is not going to need to be "working" that slide (as - just as one set of examples - would be an absolutely necessity, with some Swiss-designed instruments).

The water keys are installed...I don't use wire - when installing water keys, because I don't like the chance of possible clean-up jobs, and - if I [1] bend each water key "just so" prior to installation, and [2] just manage to keep my hand very steady for a half minute or so, water key installation is - pretty much - a cinch. I hope (??) the instrument's owner will excuse me from not installing one on the #4 piston-exit elbow. With the Holton valveset, that elbow is buried quite deeply within the plumbing maze, might be a bit of a challenge to line up perfectly, solder, drill, and (even) install, so...

"Low E-flat" @matt g:
As much slide tubing as there is available to add to the #1 circuit, it's NOT ENOUGH for a #1-4 flat-enough "low E-flat", YET - with the #1 slide all the way in (as such a HUGE PERCENTAGE of the #1 circuit can be "doubled back" on itself - valve slide tubing) - 1-2-4 is "on the money"...and no, I'm NOT "favoring" that valve combination.

4th valve C/F (for me, anyway...) ask for the LOWER #4 slide to be QUITE pulled out - so that the UPPER #4 slide can sit ALL the way in, and - with the upper #4 ALL the way in - this allows enough UPPER #4 slide pull for 2-4 B/E to be low enough in pitch.

I'm still finding that - to achieve A=440 "average", I'm needing to pull out the main slide an inch - or perhaps 1-1/4 inch, so (again) the instrument's owner's request (in restoring the inside slide tubes on the main slide to their original possible lengths) was a well-advised request.

I have not yet swapped out the top-mounted metal piston guides for the top-mounted nylon guides - which I have at the ready - but probably will do that today or tomorrow. Also (prior to a finish) is the hardening (complete soldering, vs. "tacking") of the solder joint on the SMALL side of the bottom bow - as I CONTINUE to consider removing the bell/mouthpipe (as one) from the instrument for applying the finish. (I'm sure that anyone applying a bead blast would greatly prefer to have the instrument split into those two parts, but - nearly always - a bead blaster and the assembler are neither in the same shop nor city.

One of the valve stems was too short, and - in the past - some "tech" had drilled-out and re-tapped that same piston to accept King valve stem threads . Rather than going through all of the rigamarole to silver solder an insert, relocate the center of the top of the piston, drill/tap a new o.e.m.-size hole/thread into that piston, I just looked around the shop and found a KING-threads stem WITH the "stop-shoulder" in place and WITH enough "throw" (length) to function properly on a Holton 345 (which cost about 2 minutes of time, vs. an hour), works 100% as well as the alternative, and looks the same (other than asking for some nickel plating) from the exterior of the instrument.

[tubaing]

I really like the look of those water keys (Meinl Weston?)

4th valve C/F (for me, anyway...) ask for the LOWER #4 slide to be QUITE pulled out - so that the UPPER #4 slide can sit ALL the way in, and - with the upper #4 ALL the way in - this allows enough UPPER #4 slide pull for 2-4 B/E to be low enough in pitch.

Was the lower 4th valve slide chopped? I was thinking it had been shortened as a "repair" due to a dent in to outer slide tube... chopped to avoid taking that dent out but still be able to remove the slide.

[bloke]

I really like the look of those water keys (Meinl Weston?)

4th valve C/F (for me, anyway...) ask for the LOWER #4 slide to be QUITE pulled out - so that the UPPER #4 slide can sit ALL the way in, and - with the upper #4 ALL the way in - this allows enough UPPER #4 slide pull for 2-4 B/E to be low enough in pitch.

Was the lower 4th valve slide chopped? I was thinking it had been shortened as a "repair" due to a dent in to outer slide tube... chopped to avoid taking that dent out but still be able to remove the slide.

I really don't believe so.
I just don't see any evidence of that...(??)
I can add extended ferrules - if you desire it and "trust" my observations, but it WILL pull out ENOUGH (imo), as it is...

(I'm thinking that "pulling out on-the-fly from the top ONLY to accommodate the 2-4 pitches" wasn't even on the minds of the designers.)



The water keys are made by the same maker as those that are used in Markneukirchen, but are brass (which matches this instrument) instead of nickel silver.
You see...SOME people believe that "a bunch of nickel silver" on an instrument makes it look "expensive"...but they are WRONG.
What it DOES make a tuba look like is "like those $2XXX import tubas on eBay", whereas "all-brass" offers forth a VERY "U.S.A./vintage" appearance. Just ask @Yorkboy...but do NOT ask @the elephant .

bloke "JUST KIDDING, Wade !!!"

[bloke]

...but it is, now - ALMOST, "a tuba"...



...and you might (??) be correct...Here's one that Dan Oberloh worked on, and the lower #4 (IF pushed in, in the picture...??) appears longer.

[the elephant]

Nice try but a solid foul ball, Joe.

[tubaing]

No need for extra long ferrules as long as that bottom slide isn't going to fall out by being too close to "all the way out". I trust that if you find anything else that needs to be trimmed to extended, you'll let us know.

I can add extended ferrules - if you desire it and "trust" my observations, but it WILL pull out ENOUGH (imo), as it is...

I'm really starting to like this raw brass look.

The water keys are made by the same maker as those that are used in Markneukirchen, but are brass (which matches this instrument) instead of nickel silver.
You see...SOME people believe that "a bunch of nickel silver" on an instrument makes it look "expensive"...but they are WRONG.
What it DOES make a tuba look like is "like those $2XXX import tubas on eBay", whereas "all-brass" offers forth a VERY "U.S.A./vintage" appearance. Just ask @Yorkboy...but do NOT ask @the elephant .

[bloke]

Looking again - at that Oberloh picture, I think I’m seeing some blob shapes on that outside lower # 4 slide tube that hints at the slide being pulled out somewhat, but there’s not enough resolution (for me) to tell for sure.
================
true, though:
@Yorkboy absolutely would pull off a bunch of nickel silver slide tubing, and replace it with brass.
He is probably THE #1 consumer of Conn-Selmer matched sets of .750 inch bore slide tubing.

[Yorkboy]

Looking again - at that Oberloh picture, I think I’m seeing some blob shapes on that outside lower # 4 slide tube that hints at the slide being pulled out somewhat, but there’s not enough resolution (for me) to tell for sure.
================
true, though:
@Yorkboy absolutely would pull off a bunch of nickel silver slide tubing, and replace it with brass.
He is probably THE #1 consumer of Conn-Selmer matched sets of .750 inch bore slide tubing.

And let me tell you, it ain’t cheap, either

I’d settle for NS outer tubes and brass inner ones, but I haven’t found a source as of yet.

[matt g]

That’s good news about 124 being a good low Eb combo, @bloke. I’m wondering now how the C in the staff plays. If it’s a hint flat, is it worth a subtle trim (like 3/8 to 3/4 of an inch) to give a little wiggle room for low Eb and C in the staff?

[bloke]

Fifth partial C (all the way in) is pretty good too, so I think they figured it out just about right.

Just in case there is interest in playing a double-low C, the #1 circuit needs to remain the length that it is, so that “basement” C can be achieved by pulling out upper #1 and upper #4 as far as possible, as doing so “just“ achieves that double-low C (as well as achieving it “just” down to in-tune).