ramblings on (M-W) euphonium intonation

[bloke]

preface:
I haven't seen a bunch of "euphonium" posts here, so I have no idea how many euphonium players (or "particularly insightful/expert ones") there might be who read through these posts, and might respond...

I've made it clear that I'm a "doubler". yeah...I can make a nice sound - and I can turn a nice phrase, put only once in my life have I stood up in front of any sort of large "audience" and played a "euphonium solo"...and that was several decades ago. To me, it's a way to play particularly high tessitura parts - that I might encounter - without sounding "hooty" on a tuba. I mostly find a "compensating" euphonium to be useful (because those same encountered parts often still venture down a couple of ledger lines below the staff), but recently have discovered the same thing that Rich Matteson discovered - that an old Yamaha 321 (which I forgot was up in storage) is considerably easier/more secure (for a doubler such as myself) to play when an encountered part is/stays quite "high". I use a euphonium more than some might imagine, just as I do the F cimbasso.

I recently picked up a "stencil" Meinl-Weston compensating euphonium. It may well be a stencil of the "original" version (model 451), because there's no trigger. Later, there was a model 551 (with and without a main slide trigger), so it could also be a 551 stencil (??). The 451 and 551 are a bit different, as I've worked on both of those models - side-by-side - for others (but obviously have neither of those here - now - for comparison. Now, apparently, there's a 751, and - if one of the stated bore dimensions are to be believed (.669" - compensating side is listed ), it seems to partially rival the bore size of a "French tuba" ...but (as with some other instruments) I can't help but wonder (as I've not had one here to confirm nor rule out) whether someone may have possibly measured the o.d. of some of the slide tubing, rather than the i.d.

EDIT:
I finally figured out that the compensating bore isn't being measured where is passes through the valve (as - imo - it should be) but where it expands to the #4 tuning slide - which IS remarkably large bore, and yes: .669" (17mm)...slightly larger bore size of those 3/4-size Yamaha B-flat tubas.
Also, a friend (who owns both a 451 and a 551) took a look at this instrument and determined that it is a stencil of a model 551.

The main thing about Meinl-Weston euphoniums (beyond their very high pricing, and lack of retailers stocking them) is that their bell section interior dimensions are huge, which defines that they (ok: opinion) sound more "tuba-like" than some other makes. This make has also picked up a reputation (whether deserved or not) of offering quirky intonation. That having been said, I sure do see a lot of players of other makes (with main slide triggers on board) moving those things often - and not just for one or two pitches, so...(??)

WHATEVER model of Meinl-Weston euphonium of which this instrument here is a "stencil" (??), I had to do the following things, in order to be able to "play well with others".

> I had to remove about 3/4" of length from the main slide (3/8" x 2), because it would only play "up to pitch" [1] when warmed up and [2] with a medium-deep-cup mouthpiece
> I had to add 4 (!!) inches (2" x 2) to the #3 compensating circuit slide, because that circuit was SO short as to define the lower C-sharp, C, and B-natural as unusable.
Once I took care of those problems...
> The open pitches are all remarkably nicely in tune with each other (I would rate "way above average", when comparing to other makes.)
> As reported with (albeit rare) other Meinl-Weston owners, the two lower G-naturals are quite sharp with 1-2, but 3 offers a virtually perfect "fix".
> The upper E-flat (as with Besson designs) is high, but 1-3 is a nice fix for that pitch, when that pitch is played longer than an instant.
> Everything else (at least by "a really good TUBA" standards) is VERY good.

...so I wonder (??) if the reputation (though not a wide-spread reputation, because this make has never been in wide-spread distribution) is (mostly?) due to those two slides' incorrect lengths (one: two long / another: absurdly too short)...??

Were I (??) to add any sort of "trigger" to this instrument, it certainly would not be one of those bulky/heavy "Rube Goldberg" main slide things (that seem to define a "professional" instrument, these days...??), but would possibly (though not likely) install a simple (thumb-up for the slide to be pushed out) right-hand thumb trigger for the #1 slide (per the issues previously outlined).

...so I'm not trying to "promote" this model...and I'm certainly not hawking it for sale...but am only soliciting comments from those who've had experience with this group of models (I suppose: 451/551/751).

If I failed to make it clear (above), I REALLY like the "tuba-like" resonance offered, and (though so-called "ergonomics" are not something that ever seem to be an issue with me) the fact that this instrument is built so "tall" - and that I'm actually able to rest it on my leg and play it like a tuba - almost makes me giggle (as it doesn't require me to hold it up in the air, and nor does it cry out for a "Stewart Stand").

Since my typing fingers are not yet bruised, I suppose I'll post a very little bit about mouthpieces:
I believe I'm also discovering that wider-cupped and not-quite-as-epically-deep mouthpieces are working best for me (on euphoniums "in general"). In particular - the huge bell section volume of this make (Meinl-Weston) defines that subtle (or significant) mouthpiece interior shape differences really don't change the instrument's resonance very much, and that the wider-cupped ones present me with easier/less-dicey low range response (for obvious reasons), and also that (if a wide cup might weaken my ability to play "way up there" (ex: "much above the 3rd space C or C-sharp in the treble clef"), I don't play "way up there" in public, and - even when I recently played "Mars" - I now have the Yamaha 321 as a "higher-range parts" fallback. For a tuba player, I own a somewhat surprising array of "euphonium-possible" mouthpieces. The one (at this point in time, though I'm still pulling them out of the sock drawer) that seems to work best for me is a (long-discontinued) Mirafone mouthpiece (simply) stamped "562" (obviously intended to go with a bass trombone that they manufactured - back when the mouthpiece was also made)...with the mouthpiece that I just set aside (in favor of the Mirafone) being a Wick SM3 (which features a significantly narrower cup opening).

[Dan Tuba]

Do you think this Euphonium, would be a good option for covering some of the "tuba" parts in the orchestral/BQ rep?

I have always wondered if a Euphonium, or something similar makes more sense to use than a bass tuba on some orchestral/BQ rep Especially after having the opportunity to hear a French "C" tuba...

[bloke]

I recently used it (pops concert - only 1 "tuba") on the Berlioz "March to the Scaffold", as well as on Gounod's "Funeral March for a Marionette" (both: ophicleide parts). I really don't believe that those parts were ever intended to dominate as much as they do when played on any bass/contrabass "tuba"...and - with newer models of bass tubas now approaching the size of the 1920's - 1930's "monster" bass tubas...

It's really important, though, for the "bottom" of the compensating range to be viable (again: the pitches just above B-flat below the staff).

I've already gone over my other uses for it - and (with apologies to all) even the "ophicleide application" stuff is quite redundant, on my part.

[Dan Tuba]

I would definitely like to be able to afford one of these in the future for such applications.

[sweaty]

I look at my son's high F tuba parts and I think, "Whoa, that's for euphonium".

Bloke, you mentioned how tall the MW euph was. Do you have a height measurement for it? I measured my Willson 2900 (which I bought from Brian Bowman 37 years ago and I like a LOT) and got about 26.5 inches. I really wish these things were configured for much more height. I could use about 4 more inches on the bottom so I didn't need to hold it up or use a pillow.

I also wish the bell was about 4 inches higher than it is. Having the sound come out right by my right ear must cause problems. We must be hearing ourselves louder and hearing the ensemble less with this situation. When I flip the horn around and play it with the bell near my left ear, it sounds completely different! Perhaps the hearing in my right ear has been affected by all these years of close proximity to the bell?

To gain this extra height, the length could be taken from the top bow; just use the top bow as the "handle" behind the valves and do the 180-degree curve earlier. Since the bell could then be so tall, we could also have the option of a detachable forward-facing bell. I know these are WAY out of vogue, but they are really useful for outdoors and stages where we just get lost in the rafters or absorbed by curtains. Tuba players need the recording bell, too, though they won't admit it. I've been to way too many orchestra concerts where I cannot hear the tuba player or the horns because of the direction of the bell.

I know the cases would be longer to accommodate the longer horn, but we don't play these things for convenience. We should at least be heard. Nobody likes their efforts to be wasted.

[bloke]

@sweaty
This instrument is just a bit shorter than 27 inches tall (with the bell rim parallel to the floor) and (at the same attitude) the top of the mouthpiece receiver is about 20 inches from the floor, with an upward attitude (angle) whereby the top of a mouthpiece rim could easily be 21" high (were the instrument completely vertically oriented).
============================
topic: choosing to use a euphonium, over "playing high" on a tuba
Even an Alex F tuba can end up sounding too "rich", when a part is (really) too high for a tuba (I could have played the bass trombone charts on the squatty Holton B-flat tuba, last night, and certainly - had a brought it - on my F tuba, but...) the thing is that the TYPE of sound ends up being too "thick" (again, I use the word "hooty") compared to the type of sonority emitted by the other brass instruments (playing in their "normal" - c. two-octave - ranges).
When a tuba (anything from an F tuba to a B-flat tuba) plays much above the staff, the QUALITY of sound begins to resemble that of what is referred to (in the singing world) as a "dramatic (aka "Wagnerian") soprano". Very thick/rich...and - with that type of resonance, the 5th voice (in a quintet, etc.) distracts too much from the other voices, and begins to distract way too much from the melody or melodies itself/themselves. thus: the euphonium to the rescue. I DO realize that this is the THIRD or FOURTH time that I've reiterated this, but (being important...) the COMPENSATING euphonium chosen for a tuba player's arsenal (probably) needs to be "large bore" (a mm larger bore than a Yamaha 321 or Besson "Imperial"), because (again: reiterating) the "compensating range" (E-flat - D - D-flat - C - maybe even B) below the staff are GOING TO BE encountered, and those pitches NEED to be secure (ie. "good"), not just "parenthetical"...and (probably) something that MORE resembles a good bass trombone mouthpiece (vs. a "solo" euphonium mouthpiece) is best for this type of work. Those "compensating range" pitches are about 100X more likely to be encountered (when covering bass trombone/ophicleide/serpent/etc. parts) than "screamin' high" pitches. Again: Even "Mars" (though I went up into the attic and found an old Yamaha 321 and a Schilke small-shank 51 to play that piece) ventures up no higher than a high "concert C".
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OK...I'm REALLY REALLY expanding the topic, here, but...
If someone plays "the tuba" and wants to be called for a whole bunch of stuff (even if some people don't "like" you - because you don't vote like they do...or would - otherwise - prefer to hire their tuba-playin' brother-in-law, etc., etc...) it's a REALLY good idea to have
> equipment that's flexible enough (whether it's one instrument or six) to play ANY IMAGINABLE type of music that might be written for "tuba" (PER THE MAIN TOPIC OF THIS THREAD).
> be able to read really well, work on TUNING (more than tone quality!) because "good tuning" is what makes those other musicians (who hired you) sound REALLY good, and instinctively know how to turn a phrase (ie. not just play dynamics/articulations, but actually convert symbols written on pages into MUSIC)
> Understand "styles" (from Josquin to Mendelssohn to 1980's funk to hip-hop, and beyond).
> Know several hundred 1920's - 1930's American popular songs, know most all the 1980's funk songs (which are often covered by NOLA brass bands, when hired for "indoor" gigs - casinos, wedding receptions, etc., etc...), know at least the "top 100" NOLA brass band songs (particularly their SOUSAPHONE INTROs!), know several hundred continental European (aka "German") songs (polkas, waltzes, scottische, etc., etc.), DOUBLE (at least) on bass guitar (and no: euphonium does NOT "count" as a "double"...It's just another length of "tuba")
> OWN a nice black suit, tails, a tux, a white dinner jacket, a long-sleeve black shirt, a nice pair of dress-black shoes and LONG socks (that cover your ankles, when seated on stage).
> IF you wish to be called for (still: rare for tuba) recording sessions, be able to IMMEDIATELY hear the changes, hear the style, and play SOMETHING that THEY WILL LIKE. You may have heard of the "Number System" (used in Nashville recording studios), but MORE OFTEN, I encounter the NOTHIN' SYSTEM - whereby I'm provided with the vocal/solo track, and a keyboard and electronic drums (later to be discarded) "rhythm/work" track, and IT'S TOTALLY UP TO ME to play what will help "sell" the song, and (more importantly) make the engineer and "star" (singer) of the recording session happy.
> Consider LOSING WEIGHT. 90% of live music is VISUAL. People hire musicians and go to concerts to SEE them MUCH more than they go to HEAR them, and people prefer seeing handsome people (André Rieu is NOT stupid) playing music (and - as much as is claimed otherwise - when the screen is down and someone is playing a final round, SO DO AUDITION COMMITTEES. )