Looking to buy but need education or advice

[CptAmerica]

I'm looking to buy a Bb tuba within the next six months or so and could use some advice and education on if the models I'm considering should be at the top of my list or if there are any out there that you guys think I've overlooked.

I played tuba all the way through high school, one year of college, and then for 10 years in the US Army Band. I never considered myself a great player by any means and left the band field to pursue being an Army officer because I was burnt out at my job and tuba players junior in rank to me were just much better players. Now I teach high school JROTC in a VERY small rural school and I play tuba in their concert band because their player is brand new (two months) to playing an instrument.

I'd like to purchase a Bb horn that would fit well in a small school band setting of about 20 students and that would also work well in a medium to large size community band. I'm borrowing a school tuba which is an Andres Eastman EBB231 (3/4 size, .661 bore, 14 3/8" bell, 3 top pistons). It's ok for a school horn but I just can't push through the volume I'd like to and the lower register just sucks on this thing, besides the fact there's no 4th valve.

I played for many years on Army horns, mostly a Miraphone 186 or 1291, and also for four years on my personal St. Petersburg (202 model I believe). I liked the Miraphone 1291 and loved my St. Pete. I think I liked the St. Pete because of the large .835 bore. I could push as much air as my body would physically allow and it felt like the St. Pete would laugh at me and ask "Is that it?" Unfortunately I sold it back in 2008 when I left the band. Dumbass move on my part.

Right now I'm looking at the following:
- St. Petersburg 202 https://www.tubaexchange.com/collection ... 0588693895
- This is what I used to own. I'm considering it only because I already know it.

- St. Petersburg 203 https://www.tubaexchange.com/collection ... 0568068679
- I'm considering the 203 because it's piston. I personally prefer piston to rotors. It's not a "playability" thing for me, it's strictly aesthetics, or how I think a tuba should look or be.

- Wessex Luzern https://us.wessex-tubas.com/collections ... zern-tb575
- I'm considering this one because damn, those Wessex tubas are sexy (and inexpensive). I'll admit it. I'm a little vain in this but my tuba needs to "look" like a big fat tuba. I don't generally like "Kaiser" style horns. The closer the bell is to the body the better. I like my tubas squatty.

- Wessex Viverna https://us.wessex-tubas.com/collections ... 2117799949
- Looking at this one because it's pistons.

- Wessex XL https://us.wessex-tubas.com/collections ... a-xl-tb576
- Looking at this horn because it comes with an upright and front facing bell. I figured the front facing bell would be great for when I'm playing with the school band at football games and pep rallies.

Here's my thoughts and questions:
1. Why does the St. Pete 202 have a .835 bore and the 203 have a .750 bore? Why not make it .835? Does the 202 have any advantage over the 203 becuase of the larger bore size?
2. I still have my 24AW and Helleberg 7B mouthpiece. I'm open to suggestions on mouthpieces as well. To be honest I'm very ignorant on that topic and am just playing what I was given by the Army 23 years ago.
3. What is the difference between nickel and stainless-steel pistons? I'm assuming stainless is better?
4. I remember the 3rd rotor on my St. Pete stuck all the time. Do St. Pete's or Wessex's have any generally known issues I'm not aware of? I'm assuming the St. Pete's are probably better quality now than my 2002 model.
5. $5,000 is my maximum budget. I would prefer to buy new but would consider buying used only if the instrument is in near mint condition. I'm very picky with keeping expensive toys well cared for and looking like new.

Thanks for reading my novel. I look forward to your thoughts, suggestions, and questions.

[bloke]

A good-condition King 2341 (either detachable bell "old-style" or compact fixed bell "new-style") is superior (obviously: "IN MY OPINION") to any you listed, and (depending on condition/seller/blah-blah) can probably be found (in NICE shape, etc...not just "pretty good" shape, or "playable" shape) for between $3000 - $4500.

> I'm not a slouch, and completely assume that you also are not a slouch, so - just to be clear - I'm not patronizing you.
> Given any of those (and a King) for MYSELF, I would pick a NICE King, though I do not own a King, and would choose other things (for myself) over a King, but also might increase my budget, were it necessary. (I already have what I personally wish to have.)
> The OLDEST 2341 (detachable bell) models might not be QUITE as well made as the previous (1241) four-valve model of King, but are less likely to be dogged out. Further, the 2341 model features circuit lengths which are shorter (more like what "modern" tuba players would desire), as the 1241 circuit lengths (overly-long, to - mostly - play them as "3-valve tubas plus a spare valve") are "old-school"...so (again: assuming that you are not a slouch player) I would recommend a 2341 over a 1241, both models being 4-valve front-action.

If you personally view those other instruments (which you listed) as better, they typically cost more, but are within your budget.


old-style King 2341


new-style King 2341

NOTE:
I SELL tubas, but do NOT have any King tubas for sale.
I DO offer something (that I like, if very well made, and believe you would like) in your price range, but I'm going to leave you be, and leave it to you to message me, if you care to.

[CptAmerica]

There’s the Eastman version of the newer style King 2341, the EBB-534, that’s a well-liked tuba. Dillon Music has a demo unit on sale for a reasonable price. They also have an old style King 2341 bell front that’s “well loved” for under $2,000.

[Rick Denney]

The Eastman EBB534 is a good version of the King—better made in some ways than the King. Recommended—a solid regular-sized tuba with a warm, round tone. It does not have the penetrating power of a Miraphone, but is also less likely to peel paint in unskilled hands.

The St. Pete piston model has a smaller bore because of the availability of piston valve sets in larger bores. The larger the bore, the longer the valve travel, unless it’s an old short-action Conn

Wessex tubas have a good reputation as Chinese instruments go, and their owner is a British tuba player who knows how to make things work in China. Usually a reliable choice. Packer likewise.

A used Miraphone 186 in very good condition is within your budget, and has better potential than a St. Pete. Rotary tubas aren’t always a great choice for schools, and that’s especially true with a dent magnet like a St. Pete.

I would not at all expect St. Pete tubas to be any better made now than 20 years ago, when they required a change of valve mechanics to be reliable. When good they can be great, but there is a risk. Amati/Cerveny likewise, though maybe a bit better. I’d rather have an Eastman or a Wessex (or a Packer from Bloke) than either of these, in terms of build quality.

Rick “thinking that covered all the questions” Denney

[tubanh84]

I love the old Kings. I was at a rehearsal for Tchaikovsky 4 years ago and we rehearsed at a local high school. The band director gave me permission to try them (I’d never played one and all the sudden had access to them!) Played a few notes. Blown away. Used it for rehearsal for fun. Had a great time.

[DonO.]

I would like to chime in +1 on bloke’s recommendation of the King 2341. Several months ago I was in a similar situation to yours, minus the military band experience. That is, I am a “comeback player” after, in my case, a 20 year hiatus. I had always been a Bb player, and just wanted to start up again playing for my own self-gratification, no groups or anything like that at this point. Just want to have fun. My previous horns were a Meinl Weston model 25 and an Amati-stencil Cerveny. Back in September as I perused my options in terms of quality, value, and budget considerations, I kept coming back to the King. But I felt it was just a bit more than I wanted to spend. I had a 5000 dollar maximum budget in mind just like you. Strange coincidence. A brand new King was 7700, give or take. I think they raised their price even higher this year, over 8000 I think. But then I saw an ad on Reverb for one in like new open box condition for 4799 plus shipping (150). I made a phone caller to the seller, a guy known as Quinn the Eskimo who owns a business called Brass and Winds in Washington state. He provided more details. He is a Conn/Selmer authorized dealer and sometimes is able to get “show horns”. I made the deal and for a grand total of 4950 shipping included the horn was shipped to me on a Thursday and arrived the next Monday, FedEx 2nd day air. As promised, not a dent and not a scratch. I couldn’t see any sign it had ever been played. A great deal, I think. You can watch Reverb and also EBay for his instruments to pop up. They do from time to time. If you do business with him I think you’ll be pleased. I have NO financial interest, I’m just a happy customer! One thing I will say is that the valves were gritty and noisy. I don’t think they are lapped and fitted at the factory. It is necessary to clean the casings and give them time to break in. The information that comes from the factory says that the break in takes two weeks. In reality, it takes more like two months. Now, after 4 months my valves and nice and smooth feeling. A rotary horn is pretty much ready to play out of the box without much breaking in so that is something to consider. But all things considered I am very happy indeed with my King.

[bloke]

Of ALL Kings that I've played, the best (combination of all factors, including sound, ease of playing, build quality, valve circuit lengths, and features - including an upper #1 slide), would be an OLD-STYLE 2341 (and NOT a 1241).

again, NOT worn, NOT beat up. REALLY pretty cosmetics (and - again - my best guess would be that someone would want around three grand for a REALLY nice one).

THIS one's CONSIDERABLY cheaper, but
- has condition issues
- has mechanical wear
- features the far less popular bell

https://www.ebay.com/itm/125074425103

so yeah...I'm talking about REALLY NICE condition...
...and I would pick an OLD-style 2341 in REALLY NICE CONDITION over a knock-off of a new-style 2341.

[Three Valves]

Quin The Eskimo has a 2341 under 5K and Dillon has Eastman (very good) knock off of the 2341 for under 5k.

Call Mack Brass and see what they have in the ZO line, a nice 5/4 for a little more. You will like talking to Tom.

Choose which and buy it now before it costs 10% more in 6 months!!

[KingTuba1241X]

1. Why does the St. Pete 202 have a .835 bore and the 203 have a .750 bore? Why not make it .835? Does the 202 have any advantage over the 203 becuase of the larger bore size?
2. I still have my 24AW and Helleberg 7B mouthpiece. I'm open to suggestions on mouthpieces as well. To be honest I'm very ignorant on that topic and am just playing what I was given by the Army 23 years ago.
3. What is the difference between nickel and stainless-steel pistons? I'm assuming stainless is better?
4. I remember the 3rd rotor on my St. Pete stuck all the time. Do St. Pete's or Wessex's have any generally known issues I'm not aware of? I'm assuming the St. Pete's are probably better quality now than my 2002 model.

1) Piston valves are usually a little smaller bore mainly because of the "throw". An .835'' piston bore would be insane and probably very hard to play. It's easier to rotate a valve clockwise or counterclockwise than it is to push up and down and align that way. (Not sure that's technical enough but on the right thought pattern anyway.

2) Bach 18, Schilke 69C4, (Jim Self Yamaha for St. Pete)...all good secondary options for any basic BBb horn.

3) Yes?

4) Actually I prefer the 2002-2008 models of St. Pete's when they were still made in St. Petersburg and not Ukraine. The newer ones feel cheaper and don't play as well. If you can find an EARLY 203 with the horizontal Main tuning slide grab it, the newer versions with the verticle Main tuning slides are rubbish and cut too short to tune correctly IMO.

5) Parroting all the above statements from everyone, get yourself a 2341 of either style or even the Eastman clone over a St. Pete, but if you must..the St. Pete's are still good with proper maintenance and cleaning.

[MN_TimTuba]

As the very satisfied owner of a new model 2341 I can heartily recommend these tubas.
If you like the St. Pete check with Dan Schultz @ the Village Tinker. He has a number of reconditioned 201's well below your max budget.
Happy hunting (and opinion gathering)!
Tim

[DonO.]

Dan Schultz (Village Tinker) has 8 St. Pete’s that he’s restored available for only $2200 each. I would presume they’re the older ones? I’ll bet that York Master he has for $2900 is nice though! Comes with both recording and upright bells. Dent free but stripped to raw brass. You’d have to like that.