Some more questions about King 2341

[DonO.]

Good morning! While I have a few minutes I wanted to ask a couple more questions about my “new style” King 2341. My questions concern the detachable valve section and the detachable lead pipe. First the valve section. Do the screws that hold that section in place ever work loose and need to be periodically tightened? Or do they have some kind of thread lock to prevent that? And if one did work loose what to you need to tighten it? It looks like maybe some kind of Allen wrench? What size? As to the lead pipe, it looks to be attached at 3 points: one with the Allen screw, one with a knurled thumb screw, and then where it attaches to the valve set with a very large knurled nut of some kind. I would presume that contains some kind of sealant to prevent air leaks? Does this lead pipe ever come loose and need to be detached and reset? If so, is that a job that can be done by the owner or is it better left to the local repair shop?

[the elephant]

It is a 3/32" Allen screw.

The design is pretty good and they do not tend to work loose. In case of an emergency, I keep a nice Klein Tools T-handle in my gig bag. I hate rattles, so the wrench is cheap insurance that one of these does not cause issues for me at a gig. I have had to use this exactly one time on one brace after years of use, and I take the horn apart all the time, so wear is not an issue.

——> This <—— ought to be what you need. I am not sure about the access to the braces on the King. I installed them to my Kurath F tuba, and this 6" wrench does what I need. You might need a longer one, or a simple L-shaped Allen key might suffice. If not, I think they also have a very nice and affordable one that is 8" long. These are very well made and will last forever.

You can put a small dot of BLUE Loctite on each screw's thread to keep them in place, but only if you have one that works loose on you. You don't need much. Make certain that you only use Loctite 242 and NOT 262 (Red). The Blue offers a medium break strength for when you need to remove the screw. The 262 red requires a torch to break it loose, and in the process, you will likely burn up your lacquer and cause the brace to fall off the horn! BLUE, ONLY!



These screws are a part of a system that Conn-Selmer dumped because it was helping the little monsters in school bands damage the tubas. They are not the strongest detachable braces out there, for certain. Also, the removable leadpipe can cause the 1st valve to hang when the horn gets hot. This is caused by a slight misalignment during assembly so that when the union is tightened down all the way the knuckle to the casing can be very slightly flexed, which will bind up the valve sometimes. If you have this issue, take it to a tech and let him read this. He needs to screw the joint together tightly and then heat either end (leadpipe and casing sides) until the solder softens enough to allow the parts to unload the stress from the misalignment. It has to be done carefully or solder can flow into the union and then the leadpipe is stuck. If done carefully, though, it does not take enough heat to burn the lacquer.

Further, sometimes the valve guide slot in the casing has a small burr that can dig into the plastic valve guide, damaging it, and also hanging it up for no apparent reason. Dressing that slot with a Swiss file can remedy this.

So far as I can remember, these are the only recurring issues on the older version of the "new" 2341 that has the removable valve section.

Regarding "sealant": I assemble my tuba using these parts and have never greased or "sealed" any of them. Perhaps a light coating of generic axle grease to seal the leadpipe union. ("Union" is the actual name of this type of three-piece tubing connection.) Mine is currently dry. It empties directly into the 1st valve, and grease tends to travel over time; I don't want grease in my 1st valve.

The knurled screw on the bell is just finger-tight. It is the only one that wants to come loose, so torque it down with your fingers pretty tightly, but do NOT put Loctite on it or you will have to use pliers to get it off since there is no screw slot. (If this happens, line the jaws of your pliers with a rag so as not to mar the bolt head.)

I assemble the leadpipe union first, finger tight, then the bell screw, also finger tight. Then I screw the longer hex bolt into the receiver. Once that is nice and snug I go back and give another good twist to the bell bolt and the union collar.

I think you're going to really love this tuba. Have fun!

[bloke]

In my experience (somewhat epic), any wind instruments that are held together with screws will end up with loosened (and/or lost) screws.

It obviously happens more often with careless users (ie. institutionally-owned or parent-bought), but also happens with privately-owned/adult-used instruments.

Detachable braces and detaching tube connections are pretty cool (and can allow for locating rotary valves,etc., in places and at angles which would otherwise define "blocking them in"), but I avoid them on my projects.
The more mechanical gadgetry featured on my personal instruments, the more the likelihood of a sudden noise (at least) or a sudden malfunction (at worst). As has been seen, I won't avoid mechanical features which offer real-time improvement in my music production, but (again) try to avoid any more of these sorts of things "just because", and others' tacks vary from my own.

My belief is that any manufacturers that employ these types of take-apart braces (other than - possibly - a rotary valve on an occasional model of piston valve tuba, whereby the design "boxed it's designer into a corner") do so for polishing/finishing considerations, and for no other reasons. (I receive quite a few Taiwan-built instruments from institutions which have been unintentionally disassembled.)

[DonO.]

Gentlemen, thank you both! I am indeed enjoying my tuba very much. After just over 4 months of practice after a 30 year hiatus, I’d say I’m just about back to where I was in my freshman year of college, doing the Blazevich and Bordogni thing. Fun! I will procure a 3/32 Allen wrench just in case. I’m not having any problems, just thinking ahead. Mine has metal guides, not plastic, so no problem there. I haven’t noted any 1st valve binding. All 4 valves bound a little before they were broken in but after cleaning out the casings every day for two weeks and breaking them in, all work well now. I have never taken it where it would get hot so I don’t know how it would react. Not a big concern, I play only at my home for my own amusement.

[bloke]

If it's somewhat ugly (compared to your standards and memory of the best you have played, in the past), I would encourage you to BOTH play soft-and-ugly AND loud-and-ugly.

I believe we are hesitant for others (even in our own home) to hear us do something WHILE we are working towards re-mastery.

Loud (PART of the time) WILL help.

Quite soon, you will hearing yourself playing VERY nicely.

[tokuno]

• It is a 3/32" Allen screw.

• Perhaps a light coating of generic axle grease to seal the leadpipe union.

• The knurled screw on the bell is just finger-tight. It is the only one that wants to come loose, so torque it down with your fingers pretty tightly

I think you're going to really love this tuba. Have fun!

My oil & slide-grease bag includes a small, L-shaped, freebie allen wrench (included with myriad consumer purchases). It's packably slim and small, and there's space at the screws to flip the wrench for more leverage to (un-/re-)torque them. I've never needed to re-tighten any of the Allens, but it's handy to have available, because I typically remove & clean just the valve-set & lead-pipe as a shortcut to wrangling the whole horn for a wash. It's a quick and easy operation, and also much easier to get at the tarnish and schmutz that way.

My 2341's leadpipe has no seal, and I don't grease it. If anything, I dab valve oil on the threads to keep it loose for my next disassembly. It might've originally shipped with a silicone seal, because I bought it sight-unseen in like-new condition for an oddly low price, only to discover that it played mediocre-stuffy - like someone had lost a bottle of valve oil down the bell or somesuch, I thought. It took me three cleanings and looming buyer's remorse before I snagged a silicone seal from the horn's innards that looked like it must have been partially dislodged from the lead pipe. The impediment removal immediately resolved the stuffiness problem (and it's a great-playing horn now), and I never pursued whether there's supposed to be a leadpipe-2-valveset seal, because it plays fine without.

Took me a hot moment to figure out the first time, but I agree - the knurled bell-leadpipe screw occasionally wiggles itself loose and buzzes. Instead of cranking it down hard, I just re-snug it up every now and again.

I recommend searching for bloke's metal-to-nylon valve-guide instruction. My 2341's metal guides worked ok, if a bit noisy, but the trimmed down nylon screws-turned-valve guide were a revelation - so smooth and quiet!

Also, if it matters to you, the diy cheap, hardware-store-tubing bell rim protector trick has kept my horn looking purty, despite inverting it on hardscapes during outdoor gigs.

[prairieboy1]

• It is a 3/32" Allen screw.

• Perhaps a light coating of generic axle grease to seal the leadpipe union.

• The knurled screw on the bell is just finger-tight. It is the only one that wants to come loose, so torque it down with your fingers pretty tightly

I think you're going to really love this tuba. Have fun!

My oil & slide-grease bag includes a small, L-shaped, freebie allen wrench (included with myriad consumer purchases). It's packably slim and small, and there's space at the screws to flip the wrench for more leverage to (un-/re-)torque them. I've never needed to re-tighten any of the Allens, but it's handy to have available, because I typically remove & clean just the valve-set & lead-pipe as a shortcut to wrangling the whole horn for a wash. It's a quick and easy operation, and also much easier to get at the tarnish and schmutz that way.

My 2341's leadpipe has no seal, and I don't grease it. If anything, I dab valve oil on the threads to keep it loose for my next disassembly. It might've originally shipped with a silicone seal, because I bought it sight-unseen in like-new condition for an oddly low price, only to discover that it played mediocre-stuffy - like someone had lost a bottle of valve oil down the bell or somesuch, I thought. It took me three cleanings and looming buyer's remorse before I snagged a silicone seal from the horn's innards that looked like it must have been partially dislodged from the lead pipe. The impediment removal immediately resolved the stuffiness problem (and it's a great-playing horn now), and I never pursued whether there's supposed to be a leadpipe-2-valveset seal, because it plays fine without.

Took me a hot moment to figure out the first time, but I agree - the knurled bell-leadpipe screw occasionally wiggles itself loose and buzzes. Instead of cranking it down hard, I just re-snug it up every now and again.

I recommend searching for bloke's metal-to-nylon valve-guide instruction. My 2341's metal guides worked ok, if a bit noisy, but the trimmed down nylon screws-turned-valve guide were a revelation - so smooth and quiet!

Also, if it matters to you, the diy cheap, hardware-store-tubing bell rim protector trick has kept my horn looking purty, despite inverting it on hardscapes during outdoor gigs.

Amen to all of the above and especially the tubing bell rim protector! It will really save that bell rim!

[DonO.]

What size and material of tubing do you recommend for the bell rim protector?

[bloke]

Just in my opinion...

King "new style" 2341 tubas' bells are too large and too thin to rest on their bells.

...I don't say this about very many makes/models of tubas.

-----------------------------------------

We're someone to really intend on really dialing in one of these instruments, I'd probably (particularly since the valveset is removable) dial in the slide alignment (which is often somewhat dubious) and then send off the valveset for a valve job - straight out of the Conn-Selmer shipping crate.

Otherwise, they still are good and good-playing tubas.
(I just took a look at some 1940's King pistons, a couple of days ago, and was - again - reminded of what that factory's quality standards once were.)

[prairieboy1]

Just in my opinion...

King "new style" 2341 tubas' bells are too large and too thin to rest on their bells.

...I don't say this about very many makes/models of tubas.

-----------------------------------------

We're someone to really intend on really dialing in one of these instruments, I'd probably (particularly since the valveset is removable) dial in the slide alignment (which is often somewhat dubious) and then send off the valveset for a valve job - straight out of the Conn-Selmer shipping crate.

Otherwise, they still are good and good-playing tubas.
(I just took a look at some 1940's King pistons, a couple of days ago, and was - again - reminded of what that factory's quality standards once were.)

My repair technician here echoed Bloke's comment re: standing the horn on the bell. While I do have the .25 inch clear tubing around the rim, I RARELY if ever stand the horn up. The metal is very thin through the bell and I certainly would like to keep it from cracking or folding. My 2341 spends most of its off time lying flat on the floor in a very protective Messina Covers gig bag. Enjoy your horn!

[bloke]

I’m not running down the model, just to be clear. All I’m doing is trying to help out this owner avoid problems, based on my experiences.
At this model’s price point, there’s no secret that it’s probably not going to be the most amazingly assembled nor the most amazing fit-and-finish instrument, but (as the design is QUITE excellent) there’s tremendous potential for aftermarket upgrading, if anyone cares to do so… and I’ve personally not found the Asian knockoff versions to be built any better.

… so – minor reality checks aside – sincere congratulations, and I know you’ll really enjoy it.

[DonO.]

Well, I tried the 3/32 Allen wrench and it did not fit. Hole was too small. Is it possible they might have changed this recently?

[the elephant]

No, I don't think so. They stopped using them altogether years ago, and the ONLY ones on their site for sale are the ones in the photos below.

It is more likely that the hole is filled with a bit of lacquer.

Take a safety pin or a straight pin and see if you can dig out a little nugget of stuff. Also, please post a photo of what you have with the wrench tip next to the screw head.

Do you not have an SAE Allen key set handy? I know many folks keep these in drawers with scissors and screwdrivers and such, but many also do not own any of these little guys. It is from Conn-Selmer, so it is definitely not metric.

[the elephant]

Here is a stock King 2341 detachable brace.


Here is one of the ones I have on my Kurath. The screw is identical.


Here are two of my 3/32" Allen keys in the screw.

[the elephant]

If yours differ, they have been replaced, and then you will have to try different keys to find out what has been installed. You could go bug the counter guy at a hardware store to see if he can size it for you.

It also may be that the one you tried is a replacement for one that was lost and that it is not the same head size, so I would check all of them to make sure they all match.

[bloke]

Could it be this size instead…??



bloke “ just being a smartass, per usual”

[DonO.]

Hey guys! My apologies. There were no lumps of lacquer. I was simply using the wrong size of wrench. To explain: my SAE wrench set apparently doesn’t have numbers on the holder that line up precisely with the matching wrench. Therefore I was accidentally trying to use a 7/64” instead of a 3/32. Once I switched to the correct wrench all was well. I found all screws were tightened very well except one, which I was able to tighten about 1/8 turn or so. Thank you both, and sorry for bugging you.

[the elephant]

[tokuno]

What size and material of tubing do you recommend for the bell rim protector?

3/8" od x 1/4" id clear vinyl tubing.
length is a bit over 5 feet - 3.14x20"
I clamp a single-edged razor blade in the bench vise with just a corner of the blade showing, then pull the tubing over it. Pretty quick n easy.

I share the concerns about the bell's vulnerability, but mine has suffered no ill and it's a useful option, particularly when I'm doubling and/or space is limited, in which case I place it down and pick it up with the plane of the bell parallel to the surface to more evenly distribute the load, and I do not lean on it, as I've seen folks do.
I'm more concerned about someone stepping on that big ol' wide, flat bell when it's standing on end (in the gig bag, too), so setting the horn bell-down is best avoided, but not always feasible.
I use a hard case when I assist the local elementary school bands, and the horn is either in my hands or in the fully-latched case (I've seen airborne instruments when young musicians yanked up other students' unlatched cases).

[bloke]

Besides adult use, a new-style King must be set down gently >> and squarely << on its bell, if it is not to be circularly creased.