French C Tuba VS Euphonium

[tobysima`]

How does the French C Tuba compare to the Euphonium? How do the registers of the instrument compare? How about the tone quality?

[LeMark]

this is from an answer from someone that has played both, but has very little real experience with a french tuba

I "think" the french tuba uses a larger mouthpiece, and the low range is thicker and richer than a euphonium, at the expense of some of the high range.

Carl @UncleBeer is the real expert. Hopefully he sees the tag and this post

[tobysima`]

this is from an answer from someone that has played both, but has very little real experience with a french tuba

I "think" the french tuba uses a larger mouthpiece, and the low range is thicker and richer than a euphonium, at the expense of some of the high range.

Carl @UncleBeer is the real expert. Hopefully he sees the tag and this post

I'd likely say whatever and use one of those weird mouthpieces with the tuba rim and euphonium shank so I don't have to do embouchure switch stuff.

[Shawn]

I would guess every French tuba is different of course, but the ones I've heard are a brighter sound than Euphs.
*gives exaggerated, Parisian shrug of shoulders*

[tobysima`]

I would guess every French tuba is different of course, but the ones I've heard are a brighter sound than Euphs.
*gives exaggerated, Parisian shrug of shoulders*

I'd assume that they'd fall in line with the Bb Saxhorns.

[UncleBeer]

Hey y'all: lots of info re: the French tuba. I not only did my DMA lecture/recital on the topic, I regularly played my 1931 Couesnon 6 valve French tuba with my orchestra, the Hague Philharmonic (based in the Netherlands) for 15 years on all sorts of repertoire.

First off: the French tuba was (is!) a distinct voice in French compositions, and is a different voice than the euphonium. It's a smaller bore, and a whole step higher. Here's a chart of modern euph bores. Keep in mind that the bore of my 1931 Couesnon French tuba is 14.5 mm.



And here's how the tapers compare of French tuba, Bb bass saxhorn, and a modern euphonium:



Here's what my original French tuba mouthpiece looked like:



And how it compares (L to R) to a Schilke 51D and a Yamaha Bobo tenor tuba mouthpiece:



And lastly, the vast difference between what an original French tuba looks like compared to my Nirschl York. Hard to imagine that some tuba jocks think that any old tuba would be appropriate for French repertoire.



All this and much more can be found in my dissertation https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67 ... adc984120/ and the actual recital, which contains various excerpts performed with trombone section on CC, F and French tubas can be found here:

Part 1: http://youtu.be/313HdaUj0iE
Part 2: http://youtu.be/HGIux_7_baA

Any questions, feel free to ask!

[Snake Charmer]

They are very difficult to compare! The development of the French C Tuba ended 40 years ago, but even the latest Courtois 168 is very similar to my 1940 Courtois (which was maybe made using a much older corpus, but this was during WW2...), to the new Wessex (which is a copy of Carl's 1931 Couesnon) or to a 1913 Courtois I was able to test. Same with the (french) Saxhorns, my 1911 Millereau and my 1978 Courtois are more or less identical in body and tubing, only the valves got better and a bit of nickel silver was added. They were pretty good in the old days!
Since then the size of the Euphonium seems to have doubled. With some dramatic effect on sound: yes, of course they are louder. But when played softly they are still "fat" in sound and offer less possibilities of colour.
In comparison to the tuba sizing the Euphs grew up to 6/4, while the French C stayed always at 4/4. The (french) Saxhorn is even more 3/4 than 4/4, offering a sound between Euph and Bass Trombone (with the colour benefits of the bbone!).
And it is a big difference between between Bb and C instuments in sound! My Thibouville-Lamy C Saxhorn (ca 1905, 3+1 valves) has an insert for the MTS for playing in Bb (yes, with pulling the valve slides out!), and it is sounding and playing totally different with it...

[matt g]

@UncleBeer, is the throat in the French C tuba mouthpiece “star” shaped?

Great data, thank you for posting it!

[Shawn]

That is a seriously useful post, @UncleBeer. Thank you.

[UncleBeer]

@UncleBeer, is the throat in the French C tuba mouthpiece “star” shaped?

Yeah, it is!

[UncleBeer]

Just for fun, here's a video of Pictures at an Exhibition where the tubaist uses French tuba for *all* the movements, as Ravel intended.



And a video of the Rite of Spring where the two tubaists both use French tuba as Stravinsky intended.



And "yaaaay"! I seem to have figures out how to embed videos!

[tobysima`]

Hey y'all: lots of info re: the French tuba. I not only did my DMA lecture/recital on the topic, I regularly played my 1931 Couesnon 6 valve French tuba with my orchestra, the Hague Philharmonic (based in the Netherlands) for 15 years on all sorts of repertoire.

First off: the French tuba was (is!) a distinct voice in French compositions, and is a different voice than the euphonium. It's a smaller bore, and a whole step higher. Here's a chart of modern euph bores. Keep in mind that the bore of my 1931 Couesnon French tuba is 14.5 mm.



And here's how the tapers compare of French tuba, Bb bass saxhorn, and a modern euphonium:



Here's what my original French tuba mouthpiece looked like:



And how it compares (L to R) to a Schilke 51D and a Yamaha Bobo tenor tuba mouthpiece:



And lastly, the vast difference between what an original French tuba looks like compared to my Nirschl York. Hard to imagine that some tuba jocks think that any old tuba would be appropriate for French repertoire.



All this and much more can be found in my dissertation https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67 ... adc984120/ and the actual recital, which contains various excerpts performed with trombone section on CC, F and French tubas can be found here:

Part 1: http://youtu.be/313HdaUj0iE
Part 2: http://youtu.be/HGIux_7_baA

Any questions, feel free to ask!

Is the French Mouthpiece the smallest one?

[matt g]

@UncleBeer, is the throat in the French C tuba mouthpiece “star” shaped?

Yeah, it is!

I’m curious as to how they machined that.

[UncleBeer]

I’m curious as to how they machined that.

Yeah, me too!

[tobysima`]

I’m curious as to how they machined that.

Yeah, me too!

Wonder how that affects playing.

[Rick Denney]

The differences between a historic French C tuba and a modern euphonium seem to me still smaller than the differences between common Bb and C contrabass tubas. It seems to me that we divide the 16-18-foot bugle world into continents and the 8-9-foot bugle world into provinces.

UncleBeer demonstrates that there are differences. But clearly the French C Tuba is a tenor tuba, which is to me the broad category that includes euphoniums and baritone horns (American-style), just as the bass tuba category sweeps up instruments as different as a Barlow F tuba and a B&S PT-15. To me, played high, it sounds like a euphonium when the euphonium player is not trying to make it sound like a tuba. There is a lightness to the upper register.

But it has the valves to extend the range into the low register for written tuba music.

Here's a question for UncleBeer: Does the low register of the French C tuba require the same special approach as, say, the low C on a traditional German rotary F tuba? My guess would be even moreso. I think I would get a flabby sound in that register without a lot of work, even without considering embouchure differences. I suspect that traditional French tuba players depended heavily on it being their default instrument and therefore receiving the bulk of their practice time.

Another question: Did Mel Culbertson play the French C tuba in appropriate literature? (I'm particularly thinking of Pictures at an Exhibition, which is one that usually wants two different performers to avoid dangerous blood pressure levels on the part of the tuba player that wants to use an F.

We should not think of the French C tuba as all that far outside the standard practice of the day--a century ago and more--when the contrabass tuba was an exception instrument rather than a default instrument, and when orchestras all played with a much lighter sound than at present.

Rick "recalling Bevan's statement that the 9-foot euphonium was the standard orchestra instrument in British orchestras prior to Harry Barlow" Denney

[tobysima`]

The differences between a historic French C tuba and a modern euphonium seem to me still smaller than the differences between common Bb and C contrabass tubas. It seems to me that we divide the 16-18-foot bugle world into continents and the 8-9-foot bugle world into provinces.

UncleBeer demonstrates that there are differences. But clearly the French C Tuba is a tenor tuba, which is to me the broad category that includes euphoniums and baritone horns (American-style), just as the bass tuba category sweeps up instruments as different as a Barlow F tuba and a B&S PT-15. To me, played high, it sounds like a euphonium when the euphonium player is not trying to make it sound like a tuba. There is a lightness to the upper register.

But it has the valves to extend the range into the low register for written tuba music.

Here's a question for UncleBeer: Does the low register of the French C tuba require the same special approach as, say, the low C on a traditional German rotary F tuba? My guess would be even moreso. I think I would get a flabby sound in that register without a lot of work, even without considering embouchure differences. I suspect that traditional French tuba players depended heavily on it being their default instrument and therefore receiving the bulk of their practice time.

Another question: Did Mel Culbertson play the French C tuba in appropriate literature? (I'm particularly thinking of Pictures at an Exhibition, which is one that usually wants two different performers to avoid dangerous blood pressure levels on the part of the tuba player that wants to use an F.

We should not think of the French C tuba as all that far outside the standard practice of the day--a century ago and more--when the contrabass tuba was an exception instrument rather than a default instrument, and when orchestras all played with a much lighter sound than at present.

Rick "recalling Bevan's statement that the 9-foot euphonium was the standard orchestra instrument in British orchestras prior to Harry Barlow" Denney

I definitely think the philosophy of "The tuba doesn't have a brain" really helps with that sort of stuff. It puts the responsibility to you and makes you work harder to get that solid, beefy low register. I could be wrong, though.

[UncleBeer]

Here's a question for UncleBeer: Does the low register of the French C tuba require the same special approach as, say, the low C on a traditional German rotary F tuba? My guess would be even moreso.

Just above the pedal range on the French tuba, so much straight pipe is added through use of so many valves that the instrument essentially becomes more cylindrical, making a more trombone-like sound (hence blending better with the trombones), and it does require a more trombonish, direct air stream to make that characteristic sound.

[tobysima`]

Here's a question for UncleBeer: Does the low register of the French C tuba require the same special approach as, say, the low C on a traditional German rotary F tuba? My guess would be even moreso.

Just above the pedal range on the French tuba, so much straight pipe is added through use of so many valves that the instrument essentially becomes more cylindrical, making a more trombone-like sound (hence blending better with the trombones), and it does require a more trombonish, direct air stream to make that characteristic sound.

So kind of like a Vienna F tuba?

[Snake Charmer]

Just above the pedal range on the French tuba, so much straight pipe is added through use of so many valves that the instrument essentially becomes more cylindrical

...this happens with every horn when you finger an octave down. With the quite short French C it is more noticable in playing, but for that you have the possibility to use less valves than with "standard" systems (Db: 46), so the resistance is not increasing too much. The biggest difference is: with the French C you are required to play in this range more often and for longer times than with a bigger tuba. And you have to play loud without having the advantage of a bigger horn than you trombone neighbours.
The Vienna F is quite similar to a "modern" F, only the valves are not there where you expect them to be...