1st sousaphone - what exaclty is this King?

[Brassy]

Hi there,

New here and looking to buy my 1st sousaphone. I've played the trumpet for 20 years and the trombone for 5, and would like to make the switch to sousaphone in our street band. Ill properly introduce myself once I actually made the switch :)

I got one to try and buy if I like it, but I want to make sure I get something that I dont want to or need to replace within a few years. I was hoping to get some help in identifying the model / quality and maybe even value of this sousaphone before I commit to it.

So it's a King sousaphone. 22inch bell. Silver plated. No original documentation left. Engravings are hard to read but ill do my best to describe them:

Backside of the bell:
Big flowery thing with following inscription:
KING
MAINE BY (guesswork. Its faded. Could be another word with EY as well. NY with some imagination I guess?)
THE H.N. WHITE CO.
CLEVELAND (guessing again but would make sense)
OHIO

1st valve:
"King"
Made By
H. N. White Co.
CLEVD.O. (Guessing again)
9xxxx

Havent found any other engravings.
So is this something decent? What model and age? Is it a student/intermediate horn or something good? What would be a good price to pay for it? Will I want to replace it with another one with a bigger bell in a few years? Should I consider a Conn fiber instead? Lots of questions. Sorry about that.
I was told to look for a Conn 20K or above but those are quite a bit more expensive. This one was available locally and I do know King to be a good brand from my trombone years.

Thanks all!

[matt g]

Photos of the instrument and photos of the valves?

[the elephant]

King was a famous trombonist. The HN White company in Cleveland sponsored him with their "King" model trombone. This became the marque for their top horns, hence the label "The King" or just "King" in quotes like that. It was not yet the name of the company.

Later, as the King label became better known (and more bankable), the company changed its name from HN White to King. The student models produced by them were the Cleveland line. Their top line was (I think) the Liberty series.

This website is fascinating. Give it a good looking over.

https://www.hnwhite.com

I really like the old White sousaphones, but they are usually pretty clapped out. The early King horns were just as well made and probably played a little better. I loved every King sousaphone I used in the Army and while a student at North Texas. The 1980s horns were just great players. I have not played the new ones made by Conn-Selmer, but they probably play okay, too.

I *love* the ornateness of the old HN White horns, though, and would consider getting one and restoring it with a valve job using a 4-piston set. But that would be stupid-spendy.

The horn you are looking at is a tank. But the valves could be shot. See if they leak. If they do the intonation can be really terrible.

Not everyone likes Conn tubas and sousaphones. I detest them. King all the way, baby! HAHAHA!!!

Good luck!

[Brassy]

Photos of the instrument and photos of the valves?

Attachments added to original post

[bloke]

appears to be the long discontinued “Cleveland” model, which was a bit less expensive than the “King“ line.
To me, they were every bit as good, and just seemed to be an excuse to offer a lower price point with a somewhat different design.

[iiipopes]

King was a famous trombonist. The HN White company in Cleveland sponsored him with their "King" model trombone. This became the marque for their top horns, hence the label "The King" or just "King" in quotes like that. It was not yet the name of the company.

Later, as the King label became better known (and more bankable), the company changed its name from HN White to King. The student models produced by them were the Cleveland line. Their top line was (I think) the Liberty series.

This website is fascinating. Give it a good looking over.

https://www.hnwhite.com

I really like the old White sousaphones, but they are usually pretty clapped out. The early King horns were just as well made and probably played a little better. I loved every King sousaphone I used in the Army and while a student at North Texas. The 1980s horns were just great players. I have not played the new ones made by Conn-Selmer, but they probably play okay, too.

I *love* the ornateness of the old HN White horns, though, and would consider getting one and restoring it with a valve job using a 4-piston set. But that would be stupid-spendy.

The horn you are looking at is a tank. But the valves could be shot. See if they leak. If they do the intonation can be really terrible.

Not everyone likes Conn tubas and sousaphones. I detest them. King all the way, baby! HAHAHA!!!

Good luck!

To expand: Thomas King was Sousa's #2 trombone player behind Pryor. H. N. White got him to endorse the trombones while he poached Reynolds over from York to develop the valve brass to have a full line company, including this horn. At some point, H. N. White purchased the Cleveland Band Instrument Company and marketed the second tier horns, marketed as student horns, as the Cleveland brand, while retaining King brand as the moniker for the top tier horns.

Digression: at one point, H. N. wanted Reynolds to be head of sales instead of head of development, so Reynolds quit and started his own company, then retired and sold out, then came out of retirement to work with his former rival Olds until he died. While working with Olds, they hired a go-getter who worked up through the ranks to run the factory floor: Kanstul.

It was always the H. N. White Company until Mrs. King, who took over after H. N. died, retired. Investors bought the company, changed the name to King Musical Instruments, and operated the Company until they sold out to UMI, which was then later assimilated into the Conn-Selmer Cyborg.

I believe they had a short-lived third line of horns, the American Standard, probably to compete with Conn's Pan American line.

[hrender]

Serial number puts it in the 1926-27 vintage. I have a King of that vintage, and they're good, but unless the valves have been redone they're likely worn out. Try it with a thicker valve oil (i.e. this or this), and see how it plays.

Side note: I still think of F.A. Reynolds as the Zelig of the musical instrument industry.

[hrender]

Sorry, I realize I skipped the original question. I think the horn is a King Symphony sousaphone based on the layout and the bell size. I've always wanted to try one of those.

[bloke]

If it doesn’t say “Cleveland“ on it anywhere, it is exactly what is stated in the immediately-previous post.

The Cleveland model absolutely was this previous “King” design, and was kept in queue for a while - for the reasons I already outlined.

I’m not sure when the “Cleveland“ line of instruments were set up by King, but again it was set up as a budget line. From my observation, none of the earlier era “Cleveland“ instruments were budget grade, but were just budget priced.
As an example, the original “Cleveland“ trombone was extremely similar to the professional model 2B, other than bell section width, outside playing slide tubing material, and a few less consequential differences. They were quite well assembled, and played quite well.

[Brassy]

Thanks for all the help so far! Nice to read about the background of King as well. An interesting read for sure!

Regarding the cleveland comment: it really says King on the bell, and only later in smaller font cleveland ohio. I found an image of a real Cleveland and that had Cleveland written where mine has King. I cannot imagine it to be a cleveland.

It really looks like the one from the magazine! Bell bracing, leadpipe that curves around one tube, bell size and tuning slide are accurate! Too bad they didnt just write the model number on the bell as well haha. Do you know from which year this catalogue is? Would be cool if it matches the year that the other person wrote.

Good point on the valve leakage. How can I tell? With my trumpet I can do this thing where the tubing 'pops' if I press the valve after partially pulling out the slides. There is a slight pop only during actually pulling the slide. It normalized quickly but it is there. Maybe that is normal for sousaphones?
Im definitely not experienced enough yet to tell if its out of tune due to this.

[hrender]

The catalog image is from the 1924 catalog, so it lines up with your serial number. If you get a pop or feel vacuum resistance pulling the slides then you have pretty good compression. My old King doesn't have great compression but it still plays pretty well.

[iiipopes]

If it doesn’t say “Cleveland“ on it anywhere, it is exactly what is stated in the immediately-previous post.

The Cleveland model absolutely was this previous “King” design, and was kept in queue for a while - for the reasons I already outlined.

I’m not sure when the “Cleveland“ line of instruments were set up by King, but again it was set up as a budget line. From my observation, none of the earlier era “Cleveland“ instruments were budget grade, but were just budget priced.
As an example, the original “Cleveland“ trombone was extremely similar to the professional model 2B, other than bell section width, outside playing slide tubing material, and a few less consequential differences. They were quite well assembled, and played quite well.

Indeed. In later years of the company, I had a Cleveland trumpet to march with. It was a good horn. I got it because I didn't want to take my Dad's Super 20 trumpet onto the marching field. Good trumpet. As bloke says, good build quality, just budget priced.

[edfirth]

I had one. Bought it from the New Orleans police band to take on the road with the Beatty Cole circus in 82'. They had that one and a King so, being a fan of Kings I tried it first and was quite underwhelmed but the one like you have now blew me away. Valve condition etc. aside the Kings have the main tuning slide in the leadpipe with a VERY tight bend at the bottom( like the second valve slide crook)and I think that causes them to get stuffy when you lean on them, and I'm a leaner, but the other (like yours) could take whatever I put in it. I got to hear it Fat Tuesday evening 1982 on the TV coverage of Pete Fountain's Halfast Walking Club and it Really projected unlike my later King that sounded great up to a certain point, then backed up. You have a terrific sousaphone and sewing machine oil will seal up the valves just fine until you decide to get a valve job.Congratulations on scoring a real winner. All the Best, Ed

[iiipopes]

If the valves are worn, I prefer to take a standard 2-ounce valve oil bottle, fill it half-full of preferred valve oil (not synthetic), and gradually add drops of pharmaceutical grade mineral oil until the valves seal, but not so much it slows down the valves. With the deal on lamp oil that bloke talks about, and mineral oil costing @ $2/pint, (instead of $10/small bottle for Hetman's #3) that is a lot of oil, and still much cheaper than a valve job. A good clean, a good mix of valve oil, and you may never have to have the valves replated in your lifetime. I have an old Conn souzy that is in about the same shape, and I use the same valve oil mix as described (I do prefer Roche-Thomas).