Tubas, euphoniums, mouthpieces, and anything music-related.
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I’ve probably asked before if anyone has ever stepped up the bore on a Olds model O-99 or a Reynolds model TB-10 (defacto: the same) using a King 2341 valveset.
That’s only a movement from .656” to .687” (a half millimeter), but I would just wonder if this might define these play-pretty-well-in-tune instruments as being a little bit more appealing to more tuba players - rather than (mostly?) to “trombone players who double on tuba”.
I could imagine something that blows about like a King, but offers more definition and a little bit less fluffiness… possibly filling in the “professional three-quarter B-flat” niche better than anything else so far…??
(Obviously, no one would tear off an oem four-valve valveset from one of those instruments, but I could see someone pulling off a worn out three-valve valveset (from an Olds/Reynolds) and trying this - particularly if a wrecked King body featured trashed bell or missing bell.)
Sure:
This has been done quite a few times to 4/4-size York bodies and to Holton York-alike 4/4 bodies - as these are slightly smaller than King past their bottom bows, but I wonder if it would also really enhance these mostly ignored Olds/Reynolds bodies. (noticed: There are several York-aholics, but not many Olds-aholics.)
Yes… I play a C instrument, but I also play B-flat, E-flat, and F instruments, so maybe the C tuba snobs - who might suggest doing this, PLUS chopping the instrument down - might post in other threads.
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About fifteen years ago I did my first Frankentuba. It was an Olds Ultratone contrabass bugle (the same bell as the O-99 and the same dimensions for the bottom bow, but the bugle's bow went all the way up the small side to the very high top/front bow) and I used an old King sousaphone valve section with a 4th grafter onto it. It played well in tune and had some nice grunt to the tone. I liked it a lot. The man who brought me the box of parts loved it and played it for many years until he passed away in 2019. I don't know what happened to it, though. I did not have to remove the chrome, though. It was actually the budget line (Duratone). The only real difference between the Ultratone and Duratone lines was that both received nickel plating. The Ultratones then were chromed over that. The Duratones had a sort of satin nickel plate instead. This did not save the buyer much money and did not look as nice, so not many were made.
It was much easier to solder on the Duratone than one of the chromed beasties, to be sure.
I have one here that I might make into a tuba, or I might just fix it up as a "collectible" (to be sold, as I do not want such a trinket taking up this much space in my house).
My point is that this Olds bell makes for a pretty nice tuba, regardless of how it gets used. It is well designed and made. They also fit on several other tubas out there and can save one if its bell has been destroyed.
One very nice thing about these bugles (if one were to cannibalize them for parts) is the hardware that makes the entire bell removable. The Olds ferrule/collar between the bell tail and bottom bow is well made, too, but the little screw sort of sucks. If I were to use that bit I would work out a better way to lock stuff together. The screw brace between the top bow and bell are also good, but the flange tends to tear loose from the brace half on either side, so if I were to use it on a horn I would likely remove the flange plate and try to replace it with something less prone to getting torn loose.
These are interesting horns, and the one time I grafted a King valve set to one the results were very good. If you were to build one I am sure it would sell. The Franken Chinese F you built took more time probably because it was such an unknown. But the King valves and the O-99 bugle are very well-known and liked items.
If you end up deciding to do this please start a build thread so we can follow along. I still like your thread on how to hot-rod an O-99/4. It was enjoyable and valuable information.
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bloke (Sat Feb 19, 2022 5:30 pm) • MN_TimTuba (Sat Feb 19, 2022 6:29 pm)
As you have probably noticed, I do have two or three of those Duras/Ultras, because I’m sure you’ve seen me use some of their parts on things.
(You may remember a communist East German E-flat helicon (which eventually found its way all the way - after me - to Hawaii), whereby I used one of those rotors to make it fully chromatic, as well as a recent crazy E-flat/C crazy franken-rig for a friend.)
I do have two or three of those detachable bell sleeve sets from them (as well as those big honkin’ threaded braces, obviously, but I don’t know where I threw them. (I know damn well that I did not throw them away.) That having been said, I don’t know what other bell I would want to substitute on such an instrument, so I would probably just solder the bell, were I ever involved in such a project. (I think detachable braces are really cool, but you probably noticed that I didn’t use any of them on any of my things that I put together.)
It’s unlikely that I’ll ever build one of these (as described in the first post), unless someone wants me to do it for them for stupid money. All of my projects - even if I end up selling them, eventually – were pursued for self-use/self-ownership. When I sell one of them, it’s not because I don’t think they’re any good, but just because…well, you know…
I just can’t help but wonder if this combination wouldn’t be something really special…(??)… and I wonder if Conn-Selmer scrapped those “Bach” molds.
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I like "modular" horns for cleaning, repair work, etc. I do not like them just to take them apart. The trick is to make them strong enough, which I am slowly discovering how to do. The "Neato Factor" became a non-issue for me about 20 years ago, heh, heh…
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bloke wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 2:45 pm
(noticed: There are several York-aholics, but not many Olds-aholics.)[/size]
Ironically, I have an O-99-3 here that is missing its 3rd piston. I swapped on a valveset from a Conn 5J (absolutely thrashed bugle, same bore) but am not thrilled with it.
I do have a King 1241 valveset without any tubing on it at present as well as a 2340 that has its tubing intact.
Perhaps I'll have a look at tacking the 2340 set onto the O-99 and see if it warrants installing the 1241 guts.
It might be a while though.
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York-aholic wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 10:41 pm… not thrilled with it.
Nor will you ever be. It is not a thrilling tuba in any imaginable way. It is *very usable* in an appropriately-sized ensemble and normally gives the player no guff once the slides have been properly dialed in. The novelty of this is that most tubas today in that size category have something about them that is a strong negative. These, while not exciting to play, offer no such deal-breaker flaws. With four valves they make great little traditional jazz or Fest band tubas.
And if you are broke, finding one with a nice King four-piston valve set on it might be a path to a very decent tuba for not much cash.
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As with most of these threads, I’m wandering off on a tangent. A principal part of the main theme is and 11/16 inch bore, and a medium-size (one size above “small“) body.
After all these years, the reason that I finally settled on a 3+1 E-flat comp for combo work (and lucking into one with a recording bell, no less) is because hiring budgets for old-music jazz bands has shrunk, and the seven-piece (nor even six-piece) band just isn’t often viable, anymore.
Often, I find myself playing in a quartet without even a drummer (relying on banjo/tuba to take responsibilities for rhythm/feel duties), and end up getting pointed to - to play some sort of solo - during nearly every tune. With a fully chromatic E-flat instrument - that plays pretty well in tune and offers a B-flat tuba sound, it’s much easier to play cute/funny/smooth solos (or - at least - greatly increase the chances of accomplishing this) when the main instrument is four whole steps shorter…and the 11/16 inch bore also just seems to be semi-magical with tubas (smaller: stuffy / larger: facility begins to be taxed).
Again, being a “professional“ – and not an “artiste”, the goal is to be hired back… so any instrument that I can use to “fool ‘em” is a great instrument for me to use.
Back to the title topic, there are quite a few B-flat-only players, and it just occurred to me that something set up - with that particular body and that particular bore size - might be just the ticket for those people when they form brass quintet with their friends and colleagues, and might also be just large enough for community band work. With no fifth valve, I might predict that it would weigh about 21-22 pounds (??), for those who seem to believe that this is important.
I suspect that the York-aholics (two or three here, and more elsewhere) wouldn’t particularly be enamored by the resonance that such an instrument might offer; it’s just not that which they’ve embraced. … as Wade talked around, I haven’t suggested using the body off of a three-valve Conn – such as a 12J - for a couple of reasons:
- As much as I dislike those valves, they seem to last longer for some reason and there is less likelihood of encountering a leaky 12J. (again: No one is going to tear off the 4-valve valveset from a 5J.)
- There’s just something about the Olds/Reynolds body and bell that prompt it to sound/respond better than the same-size Conn.
York-aholic wrote: ↑Sat Feb 19, 2022 10:41 pmIronically, I have an O-99-3 here that is missing its 3rd piston. I swapped on a valveset from a Conn 5J (absolutely thrashed bugle, same bore) but am not thrilled with it.
I do have a King 1241 valveset without any tubing on it at present as well as a 2340 that has its tubing intact.
Perhaps I'll have a look at tacking the 2340 set onto the O-99 and see if it warrants installing the 1241 guts.
It might be a while though.
I believe I would also recommend sticking a mouthpipe tube on there that is at least 13.25mm bore on the small end, and that makes it all the way to 17.5mm on the large end.
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