Tubas, euphoniums, mouthpieces, and anything music-related.
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Hi all - I embedded this in my previous post, and then realized that most of you will perhaps not see it. So, I'll ask it in a new post: what's your preferred "recipe" for polishing up a heavily tarnished vintage instrument?
Years ago, this was recommended:
1. Wipe it down with Tarnx (outside, where the smell won't kill you!)
2. Rinse it well, then clean it gently with a baking soda and water paste.
3. Rinse thoroughly and dry, and then polish it with Tarni-shield or Hagerty's.
Does that still sound about right? Here's how tarnished the horn is (and you can see it's had some work done!):
1898 Conn BBb - tarnished.jpg (97.08 KiB) Viewed 2644 times
Played an F. E. Olds 4-valve BBb in high school (late '70s)
Led the USC Trojan Marching Band tuba section (early '80s)
Now playing an F. Schmidt (=VMI) 3301 and goofing around
on a 1925 Pan American Sousaphone and an 1899 Conn tuba!
Occasionally, people ask me to polish their silver tubas after I have repaired them. I’m slightly dismayed, but don’t show that I am - and just charge for it.
I don’t know if formulas have been changed, but I have a stinky, watery, sulfur-smelling chemical that dissolves black oxidation in just one wipe.
Once the entire instrument is white, it takes a small fraction of the time - that it would’ve taken - to shine it up.
For satin finishes in particular, I consider this product to be essential (at least, essential to me).
I'm in the middle of cleaning up a similarly tarnished tuba (two, actually). I did start with Tarn-X (but ran out). Instant gratification, but it's very much just a tarnish remover. If not followed by polish, it will re-tarnish quickly. I just rinse it afterwards with water, no baking soda or anything like that.
I've been using Wright's silver cream... put it on, let it sit for a bit, then buff if off... I took an old t-shirt, cut it down, and wrap it around whatever tubing, hold one side of the shirt in each hand and buff back and forth by pulling one hand, then the other, etc. (what a lousy description... go to 6:30 of this video, that's what I'm describing...
The silver cream works very well, and I haven't missed Tarn-X since I ran out of it. The silver cream does need a little cleanup afterwards (because right now, my hands are black after I handle the shiny tuba). Takes a long time to get to all of the tubing and smaller spots... but it also probably hasn't been polished in 50? 100? years. I also find that there are spots on the bell that seem to not shine up, no matter what I do. I'm assuming it's places where the silver plating is worn away, although it does look a little more like tarnish than plating wear (particularly since it's not a high-contact area). They might actually be water spots... or spots eaten away because of water dripping from the leadpipe when standing the tuba on its bell. Hard to konw
I don't think it's particularly difficult to do, it just takes a while. But again, once every 50 or 100 years... I can handle that. The true joy comes in uncovering the engraving. I got my 1895 Conn Eb at an estate auction for $30... I polished the bell immediately when I got home, because it was 1) excessively dirty and tarnished and 2) extensively engraved. The result is beautiful -- shiny silver, some plating wear, and engraving that goes from rim to ferrule. Very, very cool. The rest of the tuba is in tough shape (not dented/bashed up, but a lot of broken solder joints). For $30, I had no expectations, and the "reveal" of the engraving was worth it alone.
My Martin Eb is coming along nicely as well. I'll have to take another photo and post it sometime. I'm working my way through the small tubing now. It's also a fun way to get to know every inch of the tuba, and appreciate how it's built and see what's been damaged, repaired, modified, etc. over the years. I think the journey of polishing that cool old Conn of yours will be well worth it.
One other thought -- although the shiny silver is pretty, I think the old old tarnish also just feels gross... a good polishing (although, by nature of gently "removing stuff") does make it smoother and more pleasant to touch and hold. It also gives a good new "zero" point to even out it's re-tarnishing and picking up its next round of patina. After I'm done with the Martin, I doubt I'd polish it again except for the bell.
That is to say... start with the bell. It'll give you something to look at while you do all of the annoying smaller stuff.
Jeffrey Herman is America's premier silver restoration expert. He does not recommend Tarn-X...I suppose because it removes too much silver. He has a list of recommended low abrasive silver polishes at his website (https://www.hermansilver.com/care.htm) and I would recommend using one of those. He does now have his own polish, but he has a listing of the abrasiveness rating of other polishes, too. The last time I posted about this I got little attention and people posted "I used polish X" or "I use polish Y, and it works good" with little regard for their abrasive ratings. Of course most polishes are going to work well the first time and maybe the more abrasive ones will actually work better...until you've abraded off all your plating. So I guess ya pays ya money and takes ya choice...
-royjohn
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If someone wishes to remove tarnish, I don't see why anyone would warn against using a chemical that removes black tarnish, leaving most all other choices as the abrasive polishes...
...and - particularly with satin finishes (which are common on vintage instruments) - abrasive polishes embed themselves in the surface, leaving - well - a mess (which probably can only be removed with some sort of petroleum solvent and then - guess what? - calling for going back over (basically, wasting a bunch of time making a mess and then cleaning it up) with some sort of abrasive-embedded polishing cloth.
I do know that some people - who like for OLD things to LOOK old - don't like to use chemical silver oxide removers, because they remove all of the black from within engraved areas, lathe-turned trim rims, etc...as - to their eye - leaving those places BLACK highlights the fancy stuff and (well...) promotes an "antique" appearance.
bloke "→ LACQUER, God's gift to the surfaces of tubas"
Here is a progression of photos that include removal of pitting and scratches in addition to final polishing. The pictures show the same strap polishing as in the video above. It's a trumpet so hand polishing the whole thing is feasible. I can't imaging doing an entire tuba this way. Red rouge is a mainstream low cost metal polish that works well for both brass and silver. Another polish I had success with is the aluminum oxide polish used in the final stage of rock tumbling. I bought a rock tumbler for the kids and have plenty grit and polish left over. I mixed the aluminum oxide polish with water to make a paste. It works well too, but red rouge seems less messy. But beware, silver plating can be easily buffed through to the brass, even with hand polishing.
royjohn wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:32 pm
...until you've abraded off all your plating. So I guess ya pays ya money and takes ya choice...
-royjohn
Showing my age, but I remember in high school metal shop in the 1970's, we had a pedestal buffer. Not a tuba sized one, but 3 HP. Must have been 3 phase 240V. We could grab a 1 inch piece of aluminum bar stock scrap and buff a quarter inch groove in it in seconds. A buffer like that can remove massive amounts of metal. Any kind of polishing removes metal and can eat through plating. In theory, burnishing can restore the surface without removing metal. But even for a small instrument like trumpet, I just can't image burnishing the whole thing. More suitable for jewelry.
Again, I have mostly owned lacquered instruments but I like putting a satin silver finish on really old instruments - that I have restored and modernized for my own use, because it hides scratches without buffing the crap out of an instrument.
I’ve never come anywhere close to going through silver plating anywhere on any of my silver instruments (even though typical modern-era plating on silver instruments is much thinner than that apply to instruments a century ago) but again: I couldn’t imagine using some gooey abrasive hand polish on (particularly not) a satin silver finish.
As we’ve seen, everyone will do what they will do, won’t they? (Some people might even bomb nuclear reactors… I suppose using gooey abrasive silver polishes on satin silver finishes has fewer potential negative consequences than that.)
I just realized (having not really thought about it before this thread appeared) that all of my personally-owned/used silver instruments - that I have owned - have been sold. hmm.
I don’t know that I consciously purchase lacquer finish instruments, but there’s a tremendous advantage to them: Not-spot-on slide alignment (as well as other o.e.m. not-spot-on things, any customization, and any needed dent removal - as I’m typically not one to buy brand new instruments for myself) can be addressed without ruining the appearance of an instrument…
… oh yeah, and I don’t have to argue with myself about what type of polish to use.
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tofu wrote: ↑Fri Mar 04, 2022 10:08 pm
Just when you think you've escaped the silver vs laquer debate they pull you back in.
I've always loved going through manufacturing plants and seeing the production process from start to finish. Watching that Miraphone video reminds me of just how much skilled hand labor is still involved in making a tuba. Makes you realize why they are as expensive as they are. In fact it's amazing with all that labor involved and some expensive raw materials it's interesting that they have kept the price as low as it is when you take into account what prices were in the 1970's vs today if you adjust for inflation.
bloke wrote: ↑Fri Mar 04, 2022 7:49 am
I’ve never come anywhere close to going through silver plating anywhere on any of my silver instruments (even though typical modern-era plating on silver instruments is much thinner than that apply to instruments a century ago) but again: I couldn’t imagine using some gooey abrasive hand polish on (particularly not) a satin silver finish.
Same here. Aluminum oxide polish is hardly a 'gooey abrasive'. It's a white powder and one of the finest polishes available, down to .05 micron (0.000002 inch). I have never used a plated instrument as my own. My tuba looks like trash, put plays well. The Olds trumpet in the refinishing pictures has no plating. Everything is solid brass or copper of one alloy or another, so there is no risk of buffing through. But I have had some plated vintage trumpets with very thin plating. It's often worn through in the hand area. Replating would make no sense. Gold plated vintage trumpets can be found for cheap. But in my experience, the gold plating on those 100 year old horns is thin:
What can be done with these? Avoid them is my answer. For trumpet/cornet, I like a model with a solid sterling silver bell. At about 8 oz, it doesn't add that much to the cost. Presumably the use of solid sterling silver never became popular for tuba for obvious reasons.
Your cornet either appears to be a King Master or the similar model that followed afterward.
With the tuning slide threaded thingamajig, I would guess that it's a Master.
