This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

Tubas, euphoniums, mouthpieces, and anything music-related.
Forum rules
This section is for posts that are directly related to performance, performers, or equipment. Social issues are allowed, as long as they are directly related to those categories. If you see a post that you cannot respond to with respect and courtesy, we ask that you do not respond at all.
BopEuph
Posts: 624
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:09 am
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 93 times

This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

Post by BopEuph »

So this will specifically be about alphorns, but because my German is nonexistent, I'm having issue with finding the help I need from English alphorn groups...most of them seem to just not have the answers and keep circling back to "it's not about intonation, but music," and it's getting super frustrating.

About six years ago I bought a Heimatklang F alphorn on eBay. The company would put one horn a month on eBay with a starting bid of $100 and just see what it goes for (I guess). I managed to snipe one at about $700. So for the price and all things considered, I'm very happy.

The downside is that, while the horn is overall a bit sharper than the 440 tuning it was advertised to have (it's probably closer to 444, but whatever, since I intend to use it in solo settings), the high concert F (2nd ledger above bass staff; octave above middle C in transposed pitch) is 40-50 cents flat. I *can* lip it up, but only after articulating the note, because if I try to hit the note in tune, it's cracktown.

The issue with alphorns is they go with size by inside diameter of the rim; there's not much discussion over cup shape or size. The mouthpieces aren't marked either, so basically they guess mine is a Lechgold mouthpiece, and I measured the inner diameter of the rim to be 25mm. After a ton of trying to explain that 50 cents is way too flat to be acceptable, a trombone professor who doubles on alphorn suggested I contact this Swiss mouthpiece maker, and get a smaller rim diameter, and a "V cup" (I'm guessing same as funnel). My current piece is 25mm with a bowl shape, and he suggested I go with 23-24mm. He gave me a bunch of names of mouthpiece makers and I went to Google...which was very difficult since their names weren't the domain name, and they're all in German, so Googling was a lot of work. His reasoning is that the alphorn is closer in range to an alto trombone or French horn, so I should be playing something smaller with a different shaped bowl. This seems like sound advice.

The mouthpiece maker he suggested actually does talk about cup shapes, but not any actual measurements of the cup. I sent this guy a message with the video below. He says he doesn't believe a mouthpiece will help, and that it's probably just a bad horn.

This is where I'm confused. Since the alphorn is just a straight conical bore, and I don't see any actual imperfections in the instrument, I can't imagine what in the actual instrument design could cause a note that's 3 octaves above the fundamental tone to be so flat. The 3rd or 5th being so out of tune *may* be believable, but this doesn't seem to gel with what I know about acoustics.

So, I'm asking brass players who seem to speculate more about the mechanics of a labrophone and what I might be able to do to fix it short of buying a new horn or spending just as much on an alternative solution. If this were a euphonium, I'd guess there was a leak somewhere, but as far as I know, there's nowhere for air to escape.

I think I ruffled a few feathers in that discussion, because I mentioned I'm not really looking to master the instrument per se, but would like to pick up some Oktoberfest gigs with it, since hell, I do own the instrument. I just don't want to sound like an amateur in performances.

I think even Chewie hates that note. :laugh:

Thoughts?

These users thanked the author BopEuph for the post (total 2):
Ace (Tue May 17, 2022 8:28 am) • bloke (Tue May 17, 2022 10:37 am)


Nick
(This horn list more to remind me what I have than to brag)
1984 Conn 12J
1990s Kanstul 900-4B BBb
1924 Holton 122 Sousa
1972 Holton B300 Euph
If you see a Willson 2900, serial W2177, it's been missing for a long time. Help me bring it home.
jerseyeuph
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2021 2:01 pm
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

Post by jerseyeuph »

How do the flat harmonics within your alphorn series match up (relatively-speaking) with those of the natural trumpet or other natural horns?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_trumpet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_t ... ries_1.svg

E.g., I can lip up the 7th harmonic (Bb) pretty easily, but the 11th (F) is tough.
BopEuph
Posts: 624
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:09 am
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 93 times

Re: This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

Post by BopEuph »

It's really that 8th harmonic I'm having issue with. In acoustics, the 7th/14th harmonics are technically in tune, but not in equal temperament. The other intonational issues are acceptable. Just not that single note being nearly 50 cents off...and if I were to put this tuner in 444hz, it's probably closer to 70 cents flat, while the rest would probably centered.
Nick
(This horn list more to remind me what I have than to brag)
1984 Conn 12J
1990s Kanstul 900-4B BBb
1924 Holton 122 Sousa
1972 Holton B300 Euph
If you see a Willson 2900, serial W2177, it's been missing for a long time. Help me bring it home.
jerseyeuph
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2021 2:01 pm
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

Post by jerseyeuph »

I wonder if that could be corrected with a mouthpiece safari. Tough call.
BopEuph
Posts: 624
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:09 am
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 93 times

Re: This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

Post by BopEuph »

I think, with the exception of swapping horns, it's my only real option. The issues with mouthpieces is you have only the options of specific makers because the receiver isn't standard in alphorns. I'm looking at roughly $100...and I'm probably going to get a tenor trombone adapter so I can have those options, too--but I'd rather the wood mouthpiece.

But I can't imagine there's something in the instrument itself outside an air leak that could cause this issue.
Nick
(This horn list more to remind me what I have than to brag)
1984 Conn 12J
1990s Kanstul 900-4B BBb
1924 Holton 122 Sousa
1972 Holton B300 Euph
If you see a Willson 2900, serial W2177, it's been missing for a long time. Help me bring it home.
User avatar
bloke
Mid South Music
Posts: 19350
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:55 am
Location: western Tennessee - near Memphis
Has thanked: 3854 times
Been thanked: 4107 times

Re: This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

Post by bloke »

Some of the sharper pitches' resonance is not as pleasing to the ear as the flatter one's.
How would it feel to favor some of the other pitches lower?
BopEuph
Posts: 624
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:09 am
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 93 times

Re: This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

Post by BopEuph »

Hmmm...I didn't think about that. But yeah, it might be that the slotting is better on the lower side.

I've started to think that the horn might have been a "B" stock they let go for cheap, but the company won't confirm that, lol. I figured if they did, it would be an opportunity to upsell to a better horn, but they didn't even try to.

I really wish I could try different mouthpieces to find the "right" one, but I think I'm better off getting one I think might work, as well as a trombone shank adapter which opens up more specific sizes, albeit in brass. And while I don't want to "master" the instrument, the fully wooden instrument sounds a bit nicer than with a brass piece...but I'm just trying to get it to gig ready.
These users thanked the author BopEuph for the post:
bloke (Tue May 17, 2022 9:07 am)
Nick
(This horn list more to remind me what I have than to brag)
1984 Conn 12J
1990s Kanstul 900-4B BBb
1924 Holton 122 Sousa
1972 Holton B300 Euph
If you see a Willson 2900, serial W2177, it's been missing for a long time. Help me bring it home.
jerseyeuph
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2021 2:01 pm
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

Post by jerseyeuph »

Please keep us posted with your safari results. I'm alphorn-curious and would like to learn how this turns out. Good luck!
BopEuph
Posts: 624
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:09 am
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 93 times

Re: This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

Post by BopEuph »

Will do. If this company was still doing the eBay thing, I'd have suggested you try that. It seems like they do it at a much more infrequent rate now, but it was the easiest way to get a start. I've seen the horn go for as little as $600...and that might be why they stopped. It's either a B stock instrument, or just a way the maker felt was a way to provide for players with less money.

The horn is quite fun to play. I'm also having a very difficult time with finding literature, and when I ask that group, any answers I get are usually "just look around on Google." With everything being in German, it's a very frustrating answer...but I think I've compiled enough to get through a single gig if I ever do one. So, at the very least, let me know if you want the literature, and I'll run down a list. Many of these are free downloads from modern composers though, so I don't know about the logistics of making a single PDF for people to easily download. And some are transcriptions from YouTube, so I have no clue on the copyrights of those.
Nick
(This horn list more to remind me what I have than to brag)
1984 Conn 12J
1990s Kanstul 900-4B BBb
1924 Holton 122 Sousa
1972 Holton B300 Euph
If you see a Willson 2900, serial W2177, it's been missing for a long time. Help me bring it home.
jerseyeuph
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2021 2:01 pm
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

Post by jerseyeuph »

Thanks. I check out the Thomann horns from time to time - they have a pretty nice F bundle with a bag, etc.
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 2472
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:48 am
Location: Downtown Browntown
Has thanked: 846 times
Been thanked: 767 times
Contact:

Re: This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

Post by Doc »

A couple of years ago (before Coronamadness took over), one of the guys I work with bought a handmade alphorn directly from the maker in his one-man shop at his home in Austria. It was not the most expensive model the guy makes, but it sounds great. It was over 5x what you paid for yours, so that may give some perspective as to quality vs. price. Precision measurements and precision handwork may account for small variances in the instrument that affects pitch on that F (do alphorns have nodes and interior shape requirements?). Having a custom maker address that is likely a logistical and financial nightmare, so the only variables left are mouthpiece and receiver - and those are a lot easier and cheaper to experiment with.

BTW... you don't have to be an alphorn master to impress Oktoberfest crowds. If you don't have it resolved to your liking by the start of the season, nearly all of the crowd will have NO clue whatsoever that F is flat. But you already know this. And you could always say it was Tirolean jazz and you ended on a major 7. :smilie8:

Thanks for posting a video. I enjoy your stuff. Been wondering where you've been! Hope all is good with you.

Bill
These users thanked the author Doc for the post:
bloke (Tue May 17, 2022 10:37 am)
Welcome to Browntown!
Home of the Brown Note!
BopEuph
Posts: 624
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:09 am
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 93 times

Re: This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

Post by BopEuph »

Thanks, Doc! I've been messing with this lately; putting together my own polka band. The audition didn't go my way; and it's a whole other story we can get into privately later. But I figured I put in a hell of a lot of work, and I'll be damned if I don't put these new chops to good use. I have the horn, so it can at worst be something I play once/set with the band, and at best get some side solo gigs and be able to pocket the whole pay! :laugh:

As for where I've been...Around December I got a call from Disney to return as the bass sub for their returning Broadway series at Epcot. Immediately from that I've been bouncing from musical to musical without a break on bass, and a few one-off jazz gigs on the days off. Yesterday was my first actual day off in like 6 weeks, and I'm just enjoying not playing for a couple days! The calendar has been packed from December through June, and I'm trying to plan for the future dates...but summers in Florida are always slow. That being said, this has been my busiest year ever. It's probably a lot of logistics that came out of the pandemic--from people just ready to get back out there to a number of musicians retiring, to people just seeing that I've kept my chops up the last two years.

If you haven't seen it, I made this video a few weeks back:
These users thanked the author BopEuph for the post (total 3):
Doc (Tue May 17, 2022 10:29 am) • jtm (Tue May 17, 2022 10:45 am) • hrender (Fri May 20, 2022 11:41 am)
Nick
(This horn list more to remind me what I have than to brag)
1984 Conn 12J
1990s Kanstul 900-4B BBb
1924 Holton 122 Sousa
1972 Holton B300 Euph
If you see a Willson 2900, serial W2177, it's been missing for a long time. Help me bring it home.
User avatar
jtm
Posts: 1109
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:51 pm
Location: Austin, Texas
Has thanked: 698 times
Been thanked: 209 times

Re: This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

Post by jtm »

BopEuph wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 8:55 am I think, with the exception of swapping horns, it's my only real option. The issues with mouthpieces is you have only the options of specific makers because the receiver isn't standard in alphorns. I'm looking at roughly $100...and I'm probably going to get a tenor trombone adapter so I can have those options, too--but I'd rather the wood mouthpiece.
Sounds like an opportunity to get that wood lathe you've always wanted.
These users thanked the author jtm for the post:
BopEuph (Tue May 17, 2022 10:24 am)
John Morris
This practicing trick actually seems to be working!
playing some old German rotary tubas for free
BopEuph
Posts: 624
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:09 am
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 93 times

Re: This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

Post by BopEuph »

jtm wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:22 amSounds like an opportunity to get that wood lathe you've always wanted.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Nick
(This horn list more to remind me what I have than to brag)
1984 Conn 12J
1990s Kanstul 900-4B BBb
1924 Holton 122 Sousa
1972 Holton B300 Euph
If you see a Willson 2900, serial W2177, it's been missing for a long time. Help me bring it home.
BopEuph
Posts: 624
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:09 am
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 93 times

Re: This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

Post by BopEuph »

So I went ahead and bought a mouthpiece adapter for tenor trombone to start with. It might not be the best solution, but I have a bunch of trombone mouthpieces I can try out. Maybe I can find something better, then try to find a comparable wooden mouthpiece to go with it.
Nick
(This horn list more to remind me what I have than to brag)
1984 Conn 12J
1990s Kanstul 900-4B BBb
1924 Holton 122 Sousa
1972 Holton B300 Euph
If you see a Willson 2900, serial W2177, it's been missing for a long time. Help me bring it home.
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 2472
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:48 am
Location: Downtown Browntown
Has thanked: 846 times
Been thanked: 767 times
Contact:

Re: This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

Post by Doc »

BopEuph wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 10:12 am Thanks, Doc! I've been messing with this lately; putting together my own polka band. The audition didn't go my way; and it's a whole other story we can get into privately later. But I figured I put in a hell of a lot of work, and I'll be damned if I don't put these new chops to good use. I have the horn, so it can at worst be something I play once/set with the band, and at best get some side solo gigs and be able to pocket the whole pay! :laugh:

As for where I've been...Around December I got a call from Disney to return as the bass sub for their returning Broadway series at Epcot. Immediately from that I've been bouncing from musical to musical without a break on bass, and a few one-off jazz gigs on the days off. Yesterday was my first actual day off in like 6 weeks, and I'm just enjoying not playing for a couple days! The calendar has been packed from December through June, and I'm trying to plan for the future dates...but summers in Florida are always slow. That being said, this has been my busiest year ever. It's probably a lot of logistics that came out of the pandemic--from people just ready to get back out there to a number of musicians retiring, to people just seeing that I've kept my chops up the last two years.

If you haven't seen it, I made this video a few weeks back:
Cool. Let's catch up later. Sounds like it is all working out, albeit differently than you and I discussed. :thumbsup:

I caught that video when it came out. My first thought was, "Hell yeah!" :tuba: :bow2:
These users thanked the author Doc for the post:
BopEuph (Tue May 17, 2022 10:41 am)
Welcome to Browntown!
Home of the Brown Note!
User avatar
UncleBeer
Posts: 526
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:37 am
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 285 times

Re: This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

Post by UncleBeer »

Intonation is formed in the tapers; the rate of flare of the instrument. You can't really compare an alphorn to horns or trumpets, as they are (respectively) generally 1/3 cylindrical to 2/3 conical, or vice versa. The alphorn is a straight cone (or more precisely, probably closer to an exponential horn). What's missing is straight pipe, and I'd guess that's what's causing that particular note to sag.

You say the horn is sharp overall. Why not make a short extender between mouthpiece and instrument to see if it makes a difference?
BopEuph
Posts: 624
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:09 am
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 93 times

Re: This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

Post by BopEuph »

UncleBeer wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 12:51 pm You say the horn is sharp overall. Why not make a short extender between mouthpiece and instrument to see if it makes a difference?
I'm thinking about making this (and apparently it's a thing you can purchase, but the one who told me that won't respond to any questions as to where I can find things they recommend--it's always "Google is your friend," but I have yet to come across any keywords I can think of in English), but at the same time, wouldn't it make that one trouble note even flatter?
Nick
(This horn list more to remind me what I have than to brag)
1984 Conn 12J
1990s Kanstul 900-4B BBb
1924 Holton 122 Sousa
1972 Holton B300 Euph
If you see a Willson 2900, serial W2177, it's been missing for a long time. Help me bring it home.
User avatar
jtm
Posts: 1109
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:51 pm
Location: Austin, Texas
Has thanked: 698 times
Been thanked: 209 times

Re: This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

Post by jtm »

If it's sharp enough, maybe you could fit a whole valve section in as the extender.
John Morris
This practicing trick actually seems to be working!
playing some old German rotary tubas for free
BopEuph
Posts: 624
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:09 am
Has thanked: 168 times
Been thanked: 93 times

Re: This post is referring to alphorns, but also brass intonation in general.

Post by BopEuph »

Heh, I've seen valve extensions drop the key by at least a half step.

Funny thing is, I read Willson used to make a valve section, but stopped after they got a lot of death threats. I feel like string players ain't got nothing on alphorn players. :laugh:
Nick
(This horn list more to remind me what I have than to brag)
1984 Conn 12J
1990s Kanstul 900-4B BBb
1924 Holton 122 Sousa
1972 Holton B300 Euph
If you see a Willson 2900, serial W2177, it's been missing for a long time. Help me bring it home.
Post Reply