When is too big too big!

[Tim Jackson]

When I got my 1st 6/4 it was like a revelation! A REAL TUBA! The first was a Holton 345 cut to CC - a fine instrument. The 2nd is the 6/4 York I still
have. I was amazed at how these horns could function at soft volumes with ease. All I could think of was "every tuba player should have one of these during their playing years. A real eye/ear opener and the joy of how it seemed to reach every crevis in the performance hall. My ultimate moment was sitting in the woodwind section with my York 6/4 whispering out those contrabassoon parts on Strauss's Serenade for Wind Ensemble. I played so softly - it was such fun! While that moment was glorious - If I heard it "out front" now I might have regrets. I still know players that have made a career with one big ol' tuba. I always thought the big one sounded good from where I was sitting... underneath it! I'm still a sucker for big equipment especially when you need to pump out some low notes... there's nothing like a good 6/4.

Fast forward years later...

I was at my daughter's graduation at a popular Florida university. A very decent brass quintet was playing. That's when it hit me. The tubist was good but the sound of the instrument in no way fit in with the other instruments. It was not too loud - just this massive dark sound that was totally out of sonic character with the other brass. I have sat in a quintet with a large horn and thought Yea, this is going to put one hell of a bottom on this group.

So now I realize that certain horns really work better in a given situation. It was just back in the day one was considered lucky to own 1 horn, maybe a decent186. If you wanted a different sound you put in the F-mouthpiece or a deeper piece for DARK.

I guess it's all good because now students and pros alike can justify owning numerous horns - which, after all, is what makes life so wonderful!

TJ

[bloke]

What's even better is that we can convince ourselves that others notice these differences.

I just (very recently) was "hooked back into" the 6/4 realm...but it was the only one that I've stated (consistently, for the better part of a decade) that I might be interested in owning.

bloke "They DO notice when I bring the cimbasso (only when asked) because it's loud (*only when asked), the sound points at the backs of their heads, and it's funny-looking. The principal trombone also notices when I bring the only-32-inch-tall Holton B-flat to quintet jobs, because he sits to my left, and the short bell points at his right ear. "
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Bass trombone and big trombone, what's going on over there? sir? Where's the sound? With apologies, everything - so far - is marked between piano and mezzo forte. To hell with that $h!t. Yes sir.

[Worth]

I was at my daughter's graduation at a popular Florida university. A very decent brass quintet was playing. That's when it hit me. The tubist was good but the sound of the instrument in no way fit in with the other instruments. It was not too loud - just this massive dark sound that was totally out of sonic character with the other brass. I have sat in a quintet with a large horn and thought Yea, this is going to put one hell of a bottom on this group.
So now I realize that certain horns really work better in a given situation.

This is an interesting and important observation. Considering this was a large University graduation, was the venue large and open? As I bond more and more with my somewhat recently acquired 188, this very question comes to mind, especially outdoors or in a less than ideal acoustic space. From behind the bell and to the other ensemble members, there is no preference between this and my PT-6P clone. Granted, that's not a 6/4 but my concerns are the same. Adding to that, it is difficult to get a good read from a discerning audience member like yourself. Seems a good idea, when in doubt, to go for the horn with more direct punch. Thanks for your observations!

[Doc]

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Bass trombone and big trombone, what's going on over there? sir? Where's the sound? With apologies, everything - so far - is marked between piano and mezzo forte. To hell with that $h!t. Yes sir.

That's my kind of music director!

[bort2.0]

*

Bass trombone and big trombone, what's going on over there? sir? Where's the sound? With apologies, everything - so far - is marked between piano and mezzo forte. To hell with that $h!t. Yes sir.

That's my kind of music director!

Last night, pre-concert the conductor told us 1) please remember the dynamics we worked on and 2) but anyway, we're outside so play to be heard.

[bort2.0]

To me, the "too big" effect wears off pretty quickly. After a short period of time, it all becomes very normal.

That just happened to me a few months ago with my Rudy 5/4 -- when I got it home, it seemed gigantic. When I first held it in my lap, it felt like I was holding a leg, instead of the side bow of a tuba. I was worried that it would drown out the ensemble, and that it would just be all around too much.

First rehearsal, about 5 minutes in, I knew everything would work out just fine. The depth of the sound enhanced everything around it, made me sound better than I am, made the trombones sound as good as they are (they are very good, this is supposed to be a compliment!), and not once did I get the hand from the conductor (who, after the first concert, asked me "you're coming back, right?"). The biggest surprise of all was how quickly it became NORMAL for me. I don't think the Rudy 5/4 is the perfect tuba as a one-tuba solution, but when it's a matter of "I have a tuba, and this is my tuba," you'll quickly learn to do just fine with what you have.

The big tuba is great for using LESS effort to produce "bigger" sound. Not necessarily LOUDER, but bigger, fuller, and more present sound. I'm enjoying it tremendously, and for as long as my body and lungs can support it, I think I've found my tuba happiness.

[bloke]

Acquiring a big/wide 6/4 and than working one's (_!_) off to put some "teeth" into the sound is counterproductive.

(A few here, but mostly at the old place) I believe I posted enough large ensemble videos of NOT 6/4 tubas that offer more "teeth" with plenty of volume/patron pitch-discernment/resonance - and without a drop of perspiration being released.

The classic central European "kaiser" B-flat tubas are quite large YET their bells usually don't flare out as much as with popular-with-American-consumers (these days, mostly built in C) "lap-sousaphones"...thus ("kaisers") a combination of more-sound-with-the-same-effort PLUS some "teeth". The compromise, though (with the "kaiser"-style instruments), seems to be at run-off-the-mill volume levels - whereby the sound (with some of those) seems to get "stuck down in the bell" (at least, to the player's perspective...but possibly not to the patrons' perspectives...as with a recording bell...very loud to the patrons, but seemingly somewhat muted - to the operator).

<sidebar>
As far as Voice-of-the-Theater resonance (and push-button fortissimos - with just-enough "teeth") I'm still chuckling when playing this new-to-me thing
</sidebar>

the last of my opinionated/triggering/eyebrow-raising bull$h!t for this this post:
A jackass Sec'y of Defense once quoted someone else in saying (paraphrasing) that a country goes to war with the army it has (ie. you have what you have, and that's what you have to use). I'm thinking that the "lap sousaphone" naturally-emitted type of sound (and maybe a similar type of sound - which seems to be characteristic of - very specifically - the PT6-P tubas) might not be the best type of sound for many eastern European works. It seems as though most of those romantic era easterly composers' classic works ask for a good bit of "teeth" in the tuba sound.

[Wally]

After a lifetime of being a one tuba guy (a Mirafone 186, which is still, and will always be, my soulmate), I have recently acquired a Rudy 5/4 CC of approximately mid 60's vintage. It has obviously had a very active life, but is in wonderful condition. The tone is AMAZING! I plan to use it starting this fall. (I have spent the spring and early summer learning EEb and treble clef. My brain hasn't exploded yet, so CC fingerings should be a snap!)

[Doc]

I've never been told it was too big.

The tuba. I was referring to the tuba.

[tubanh84]

What's even better is that we can convince ourselves that others notice these differences.

Played a 2155 - never got anything but compliments in whatever setting I played it in. Moved to a RM5/4 - never got anything but compliments in whatever setting I played it in. Moved to a PT6 - never got anything but compliments in whatever setting I played it in. Downsized to a Gnagey 4/4 - never got anything but compliments in whatever setting I played it in.

Played each of those horns in orchestra, band, quintet, randomized chamber settings, and solo.

To your point - As long as you are tasteful, in tune, on time, and have a good sound, people literally don't care that this horn has more core than your last one. Or that you left home 6 other horns because this one was the PERFECT ONE for this concert.

I maintain in many settings, peoples' expectation is to not have to think about the tuba. It lays a ground for the rest of the ensemble to shine. Throw in a couple fun exposed lines, and WOW WHAT A TUBA PLAYER.

Anyway. Maybe that's a bit cynical. I'm not actually feeling cynical this morning. I just didn't pick up and stick with the tuba with the expectation that people would notice me.

[Tim Jackson]

To your point - As long as you are tasteful, in tune, on time, and have a good sound, people literally don't care that this horn has more core than your last one. Or that you left home 6 other horns because this one was the PERFECT ONE for this concert.

Of course, this is the very reason I wanted to bring "When is too big too big" to this forum. I'm sure we have all had folks compliment us on our sound & tone no matter what horn we bring. This blog was not about your sound at the podium, at the bone section, at the viola section, under your bell, it is about the sound of a horn out in the hall.

The instance I referred to was in a huge hall/colosseum with a brass quintet. Fine playing by all - and my ear was on the tuba. Excellent player. In tune, well balanced, perfect timing with the ensemble, and I'm sure they were all patting each other on the back and high-fiveing each other all the way to the beer hall. Now here is what I heard out in the hall... this is coming from someone who has sleeped & breathed tuba since 1968. I loved every good horn I put my hands on and even some of the bad ones. I love the BIG ones and I love the skinny ones. What I heard was this dark tuba sound that did not relate at all to the sound of the other brass instruments. They ARE supposed to be a family right? No amount of balance, tone, accuracy, friendship, or beer will change what did not sound good to me. Even if the piece was a modern quintet piece intended for a real tuba - nothing I heard sounded right. Maybe it was one of those ol' dark Holtons. Like an Elephant and some poodles. They both belong to the circus, and both are animals, but they shouldn't be in the same ring together.

So, here's what you do. Find a tuba player with good ears that you trust, and years of experience hopefully in several facets of the music profession, and get him to a concert. Buy him the best seats for accuracy and tell him what you want him to critique. Please not how does the tuba sound, how is my tone, is my timing with the section good. Ask him how the sound of the tuba relates or blends with the other brass instruments. Granted different locations in the hall will produce different results. Maybe get a player to attend a chamber rehearsal where you can switch horns - now we're getting somewhere!

Case in point- I was asked to play Rite of Spring one year with a good symphony. MY FAVORITE PIECE - when I was young this would be my dream. After some thought, I decided "why lose money doing a per service when I can do a big pop gig and make some big $. I decided I would rather hear a Sunday matinee and enjoy the piece without the distractions of counting measures and making a big note here and there.

I can't imagine the conductor would balance the orchestrions the way he did if he was hearing from further back in the hall. He balanced to his ear at the podium. It was obvious. Did anyone else notice - I think not. It's not about preference it's about things ain't what you might think they are when you get out front.

A fourth bone part in a jazz band scoring will never sound right on tuba no matter how you blend or balance. You are kidding yourself. Only works when the part says something like bass bone/tuba - then the intervals & scoring will sound appropriate.

I write this because I also like putting a big bottom on a group. I love BIG equipment. This is about what is right for the group's overall sound. Maybe not as critical in a large group but more important in chamber playing.

Some tuba players can sure get an attitude when you talk about their mother tuba! Yes, no one really cares what instrument you play or bring as long as you play your butt off. I just bring the subject to light because there is so much talk about this horn or that on this site.

Bad choice of subject matter on 6/4 day!

FYI just writing a lot because I've been struck down by covid and been confined to my chair for a few days.
P.S. and yet another thing... I loved tuba ensemble back in the day... now I think it's gross. Interval limits are discussed in composition for a reason.

TJ