possible helpful technique: learning "time" (without a metronome)

[bloke]

Pianists and tuba players, possibly, are the worst.

Pianists "take" time reach for pitches in other ranges (with their arms) whereas tuba players "take" time to reach for pitches in other ranges with their mouths.

Learning some 1940's "jitterbug" popular tunes is a good way to LEARN time (and to make these long reaches IN time) - without a metronome.

Pausing - instantaneously - to move to the low range, or to breathe - sounds wrong, EVEN to the player - when playing "jitterbug" music.

The "jitterbug" music ITSELF will demonstrate timing flaws, and this - then - can be applied (and will - consciously and subconsciously) to all other types of music.

Even stuff like slide-pulling can interfere with time.

When playing those songs, one might (??) find themselves playing some of the notes BEFORE they "planned to" (or were aware that) they're playing them...because the jitterbug song (and it's very strongly-defined pulse - in one's mind) will "push the note out of the player when it is supposed to happen.

It's also sort of fun - well...other than hearing one's own timing flaws.

[jtm]

Can you point to a couple of examples? I'm always looking for new stuff to play along with.

[bloke]

Can you point to a couple of examples? I'm always looking for new stuff to play along with.

just any old jitterbug song..."Chattanooga Choo-Choo"...

..."In the Mood" (in various keys) works on a whole bunch of arpeggios as well...(??)

[russiantuba]

Playing in a NOLA style brass band with a great drummer taught me more about my time weaknesses and rhythmic accuracy and how to fix them more than any metronome or instructor had ever. I had some good instructors too.

[tubanh84]

Pianists "take" time reach for pitches in other ranges (with their arms) whereas tuba players "take" time to reach for pitches in other ranges with their mouths.

It's a very humbling part of learning a new piece to have to sit back and ask yourself honestly whether you are breathing or taking time in places because of a lack of technical ability, rather than for the musicality. I think we convince ourselves it's musical when it is frequently not. It's also interesting how quickly those technical lapses can be smoothed over once you're aware of the issue and honest with yourself about it.

Piano players *to me* are the only ones who have a real excuse to actually do this. They sometimes do have to cover a (relatively) large physical distance, especially if they are a small person trying to play Rachmaninov or Liszt. I notice guitar players do it almost as a rule, and I've never considered it to be musical.

With tuba, there is no physical distance, just a lack of flexibility. I'm not saying I'm not guilty of it, but I try to be cognizant of it and fix it. I like your idea of forcing yourself into music that simply does not allow for the time to be taken so that there is no question that it's not musical, and you have to keep up.

[Paulver]

Any piano player worth his/her salt has prepared for the transition to a "far reach" long before it happens. You gotta know where your body is! The slightest shifting of foot position, center of gravity shift, hip position, body weight and control, mind-picturing of keyboard target, hand position, finger position, finger selection, and touch, are all done and decided upon in a instant.......... in order to keep up with the set tempo. That stuff is part of the "learning to play" process, and is done subconsciously in preparation for the upcoming transition. Good players work on that sort of thing endlessly..... with and without a metronome to the point where they CAN'T get it wrong.

All that said, there are differences between a pianist soloist, a piano accompanist, and an ensemble piano player. All three demand different techniques and mindsets. Having been a piano major in college, and a long time piano "player"......... who no longer plays due to hand surgeries, there should never be a time when the piano player is late on an entrance or dragging the tempo down. Although........ there are definitely some who do, but will never admit it!!!

[bloke]

fine…but (not intending that triggering analogies knock the thread off it’s rails) not all musicians are “worth our salt, and that’s why we work on our weaknesses. Tuba players often seem to be weak (time-wise) reaching for the low range and also losing time to breathe.
We tend to view that blah, blah-blah, and blah-blah-blah are so very very important, but those who hire us MOSTLY want us to keep time properly. (One of the main things that often prevents tuba low pitches from being heard by patrons is the fact that many of us tend to begin them a millisecond late, whereas the patrons have already heard the entrance of the ensemble, and our sound is - then - parenthetic.

If “piano playing” to become a full sidebar in this thread – rather than just an introductory analogy – besides the fact that their hands often have to move a considerable number of inches in distance, the fact that even their performances mostly tend to be all by themselves is a factor that allows many of them to “make their own time“.

[tubanh84]

If “piano playing” to become a full sidebar in this thread – rather than just an introductory analogy – besides the fact that their hands often have to move a considerable number of inches in distance, the fact that even their performances mostly tend to be all by themselves is a factor that allows many of them to “make their own time“.

Back in college, a friend asked me to play the piano reduction accompaniment for her so she could rehearse the Chopin piano concerto #2. Now I can barely play piano. Mechanically reading the notes off the page and plunking them out with about 75% accuracy was the best I'd ever do. And she knew that. We got maaaaybe a page in, and I had to stop. "Do you not know how this pieces goes?!"** "Well, no. But also what you're playing has almost nothing to do with what I'm looking at on the page. I can't keep track of what you're doing and also play my part."

**This is one of my favorite criticisms from violin, cello, and piano players. No. I don't know all your concertos. Frankly, I know most of them. But not all. Name ONE of mine...

[bloke]

With one of the orchestras with which I work (at reading rehearsals) the music director will sometimes say,
"You folks all live where there's internet...Did it occur to any of you (though obviously you haven't looked at these parts) to - at LEAST - listen to this piece on youtube...??

[Paulver]

Bloke......
Just for clarification.......... I wasn't disagreeing with you. I'm merely pointing out that it shouldn't happen, and especially shouldn't be passed off as "close enough." While I went to a very small college with an even smaller music department, my piano prof played like an incredibly well tuned, oiled, and maintained machine! In his teaching, nothing was allowed to be left to chance, and nothing that wasn't totally correct, was acceptable. And that was drilled into us, constantly.

There is, of course, the "rhythmic license" thing, and also acceptable room for "interpretation", but no allowances were ever made for being "slow on the draw" for anything.

As a tuba player, I also, fully understand where you're coming from with large leaps from low to high, and visa versa. A "reset" of the embouchure in order to get the notes out on time, is an inherent problem that needs to be worked on diligently. I, for one, am sometimes guilty of possibly being a tad late on a particular rhythm and/or note, depending on its location, at a prescribed tempo. For me, it's usually a result of lack of practice, and a proper amount of work on those phrases or tunes, usually clears it up. Additionally, being a little "too content" while playing a piece, will lull one into a more relaxed state of mind, which will cause a player to be late on "the beat."

I have a friend/colleague who is a phenomenal percussionist. When he's playing.... no matter what ensemble it is, the group is totally together and tight. He "leads/drives" the group like nobody else I know. When he's there, you simply can't help but do things right. And yes........ he's that good!

[bloke]

yeah…
It’s just that really good time makes music much more exciting…and it does so more than any other single factor.

As I’ve stated several times, I’ve been playing with a group of really nice amateurs - who allow me to come and go. I am being reminded of some things that we all struggled to address in the past, but which we all need to remind ourselves about continuously. Related to time, one of the things that I hear is a worried approach to figures with fast notes in them. Sometimes, I’m reminded of myself when I first learned a jump rope. Rather than getting into the rhythm of the rope, I would do this “Geronimo“ thing, wait a little bit too long, run in there, and then let myself get hit by the rope. In the same sort of way, I hear people waiting until too late to start their figures - and then having to attempt to play them even faster than they are written, in order to try to catch up with the time.

With my own new-to-me (not only giant, but) two feet longer B-flat tuba, i’m doing just what I’m recommending in the original post. I’m playing old popular tunes with very strong rhythmic pulse, and really concentrating on keeping the time (as well as the focus of the sound) when I jump down to the lower pitches in those songs. I’ve been playing a bunch of Bordogni vocalizes on that instrument, and now it’s time to start mixing in some strict time exercises. Playing old songs that I know is almost better than going back and re-reading so-called “technical“ exercises out of a book, because I’m having to think about how the songs go - while also concentrating on the time…so that makes it just a little bit more like an actual rehearsal or performance situation.
C tubas offer quicker response, because the bugle is 2 feet shorter, and 5/4 tubas offer a quicker response than 6/4 tubes…so I’m working with both of these things. (Over forty years ago, I recall watching Rich Matteson borrow a band director’s gigantic slow-valves Alexander B-flat and play some very rhythmical - and very accurate, rhythmically - stuff on it, and doing so dead cold. That made a huge impression on me.)

[Paulver]

A month or two ago, I had the opportunity to see.... up close and personal....... Jim Self and one of his former students perform. They were, quite literally, all over their instruments. Extreme ranges, weird rhythms, outrageous intervals, high speed tempos..... you name it. They never missed a beat, never got out of sync with the accompanists, never anticipated or rushed beats. I marveled at their abilities, and made mental notes as to their performances. They made seemingly totally effortless jumps that were ridiculous in distance, at high speeds. Normally, when a player has to reset their embouchure for such jumps, you can see the effort to reset. When these guys played......... there was virtually no visible movement to be seen. Obviously, they had to do it, but they did it in such a way that it was incredibly quick and imperceivable. I talked to them after the performances, and they both simply said........ the key was hard work and attention to detail....... constantly!

That sort of effort while playing in a large ensemble is difficult to maintain due to the sheer number of players. Playing like that as a soloist or in a quintet, etc., is obviously much "easier", as you are the only one on that part, and due to the clarity of parts and lack of a conductor, you "must" be dead on.

[bloke]

I’ve done a couple of exposes here on my drummer friend James Sexton. He’s also a really great pianist and singer. Reviewing NOLA brass band tunes with him before a gig – if there’s no bass drummer running through the tunes with us, I really have to pay attention because he absolutely does the “big four” thing (with tons of flourishes and goofy accents - as he has an incredibly quick mind and hands) and isn’t particularly interested in emphasizing a downbeat until 16 beats has passed, but his time is dead on.

Secret hint:
If you suspect that you have turn the beat around, just do a sneeze with your sousaphone, while listening to the melody being played by the trumpet.

[bloke]

…I’m not meaning to be teachy/preachy.
(and many of you know that I do not teach lessons)
… but I get tired of talking about equipment, etc., and sometimes would like to talk about “Hey, have you tried this?, it sort of works for me…etc.”

[Mary Ann]

Way back when I was making an effort at earning money with violin, I joined an Irish traditional music cum bar songs band. The other three were from Ireland, and one was a very good button accordion player. They all had Irish rhythm, which is just bam on the beat. You know, reels and jigs and hornpipes -- metronomic. Even after music school and a few years, my rhythm was pretty much all over the place. They put up with me because of my technique and ability to learn the style, but it took six months for me to get there.

Many years later, I was at a horn workshop where Phil Myers was doing master classes. Some poor student who was the victim, Phil tried to get him to just play straight, metronomic eighth notes on one pitch. The guy simply could not do it and was clearly mortified. If you don't learn that skill young, or if it is not innate for you, it can be a hard road to get there. When I was teaching and someone had rhythm problems, you know, the type that gets off from the group and then starts stomping his foot because everyone ELSE is wrong? I would tell them the rhythm is outside you; you have to stop going on what is inside you and meld with what's coming in from the outside. Some of them got it, and many of them argued with me. But they could not argue with a metronome, heh.

[Rick Denney]

...But they could not argue with a metronome, heh.

Yup.

I'm a typical amateur playing music, but there are things I do professionally where I'm not even a typical pro. When I teach engineers with less experience, I tell them that my goal is for them to develop intuition. One woman asked me in a course, "How do I develop intuition?"

By performing these calculations by hand often enough so that the patterns of the numbers emerge. (And this is why I teach manual calculation methods--one has to earn the right to use power tools, and software that bypasses all this work is a dangerous power tool.)

Meaning: The ability to see those patterns may come more easily for some than others, but it comes to nobody without doing the work. Intuition, like judgement, is the product of labor, not the easy button.

So, even as old as I am, I routinely practice with a metronome. I mean, every tune I'm going to perform, not just the occasional etude or scale. Once I find where I'm not being honest with the time, and correct that, I can internalize it and go on intuition. The more I do this, the better my time gets. If I don't do it for a few weeks, my time gets worse.

(I realize that the point of the thread is to develop time without a metronome. But the metronome sits on my stand, while playing along with a recording is noisier and more fiddly. On the big interval topic: My flexibility has always sucked, and I'm the opposite of those students of Jim Self. Reason: I didn't put in the time with embouchure fundamentals back when I was learning, and haven't corrected it since. Also on topic: I watched the percussionist playing with the Summit Brass many years ago while attending a concert, and noted that the percussionist's whole body was involved with the beat for many beats before his entrance. That is not a crutch for him to come in at the right time, it's a product of his innate--well-trained--good time, which incorporates the time of the group--that external rhythm--into his body before being required to make a noise.)

Heard by me: "But Rick, metronomic music is not musical!"

Uh-huh.

Rick "do not break the rules before learning them" Denney

[bloke]

I just cracked a joke in another thread about so many musicians seeming tending to only associate that music - whereby time is stretched or placed - as being “expressive“.

[bloke]

Sort of the point I was trying to make is that metronomes and tuners are good tools, but they don’t take us to the finish line - because they don’t offer any points of reference.
“I’m in tune with this machine, but what does that mean?”
“I’m playing with the clicks, but can I play this without the clicks?”

[Rick Denney]

Yes, but if you can't play with the clicks, you sure as heck can't play without them.

And playing with the clicks enough times to work out the bits where that honesty was needed is a step in the process of not needing them.

Sometimes, when I'm responsible for the tempo, it's more a matter of not speeding up or starting out too fast where it isn't necessary to keep from being too fast for clarity in the technical bits.

Rick "as fast as possible, but not faster" Denney

[bloke]

..."as fast as possible..."

I try to work things out so as I'm (hopefully) never painted into that corner.

...and - if it might happen occasionally - it's due to the person in charge of the speed being clueless, which then defines the situation as comical.