Branded Gap Filler Valve Oil for Worn or Old Tubas.

[2nd tenor]

I have two reasonable Tubas of my own but both are well used and have larger than new valve clearances … and when new one of them would have had relatively loose fitting valves. Both of them play OK, well even, but I’m conscious that a little air loss is happening and that valve rebuild jobs are somewhat expensive. The cheap and easy answer has been to try to avoid thin valve oils and then get on with playing as best I can.

When the last bottle of oil finally emptied I bought Yamaha Vintage Valve oil to replace it. The Yamaha oil seems a step in the right direction, good stuff even, but I could easily accommodated heavier/thicker and I suspect that some of it will wash away in use. I’m wondering what other products are out there that might give a fuller and lasting seal, your suggestions please?

I’ve seen a few ‘home brew’ oil details on these pages but for the moment I’d prefer to stick with branded products and then hope that they will be available in the UK.

[DonO.]

Some use Hetman #3 for that purpose.

[bloke]

There’s no reason to spend any money. Mix lamp oil with a few drops of automobile engine oil a little bit at a time, add it to the valves, and - as soon as you sense that the valves are moving a little bit too slow for your liking - add back a little bit of lamp oil, and then that’s your formula.

[2nd tenor]

Some use Hetman #3 for that purpose.

Thanks, that’s what I thought might be the case. In the first instance I’m focussing on what commercial products are available, health approved and successfully used by members for loose fit valves and then I will look at how I can purchase one of those products here in the UK.

If all else fails then I’ll have to check out the home brew options (found on this forum) that might also be open to me here in the UK. I’m also minded to try sewing machine oil (I already have Singer oil for other workshop use and sewing machine oil was mentioned here in another thread), but in the bigger picture a small bottle of valve oil usually lasts me a long time and valve oil isn’t so expensive as to make me want to buy materials, prepare and use a non-proprietary product - I appreciate that high rate users might have different priorities.

[hrender]

I've used a few different ones with some horns I had previously. All worked okay, none completely solved the problem of worn valves. I tend to have issues with Hetman products, some unfavorable combo of my body chemistry and the oil leads to the formation of sludge. The BERP stuff seemed to be thickest, IIRC, but I had some issues with build-up unless I wiped the valves down every time I put on more oil. I tend to do that now, anyway, but at the time I recall it being an issue. I think I settled on the Monster "smoother" oil ultimately. I don't recall if I actually tried the UltraPure black label stuff, but it was on my list.

https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-Superior- ... B06XYX3Y5T

https://www.amazon.com/Monster-Oil-Smoo ... B00WTPFXYM

https://www.amazon.com/Hetman-Classic-P ... B004R35X8A

https://www.amazon.com/Ultra-Pure-Class ... B07DTD2SVJ

https://www.hickeys.com/music/brass/hor ... lheavy.php

[Yahnay-san]

Hetman 3 is good (and currently unavailable I think), but I find Yamaha Classic is better on my stable of old horns.

[iiipopes]

I do something similar: a few drops of pharmaceutical grade mineral oil added to a small bottle of conventional valve oil.

[donn]

In some previous iteration of this discussion, there was a little talk about really heavy oil additives, like Luca Heavy Duty Oil Stabilizer and other probably cheaper but equally good alternatives. I can't report any really striking results, but then I don't have any special lubrication problems to deal with. These would be mixed in very small amounts with a lighter base, on the the theory that performance of a lubricant mix isn't simply a matter of getting the right average weight.

[bloke]

sidebar (not helpful to the thread originator)

Back when valve rebuild jobs were viable (affordable), I would put STP Oil Treatment (as thick as honey) on REALLY worn valves, to determine whether a horribly-worn-valves instrument was worthy of a valve rebuild job.

[donn]

I neglected to mention, there was a suggestion that the heavy oil could be applied directly to the piston surface and wiped down to a thin layer. The promoted virtue of these oils is that they persist in the bearing surfaces when the thinner oils have wandered off and dried up.

[MikeMason]

Just to add a bit of info, on a visit to blokeplace several years ago, the bloke poured some of his miracle elixir down my leadpipe to help stave off red rot in my former wiseman c. I tasted diesel fuel with every breath until finally washed it out with dawn. I supposed I’m too delicate. I have no doubts that his various remedies and suggestions work.

[donn]

There also have been varying views on what is lamp oil, and does it have an odor. In my view, the good stuff is truly odorless and stays that way, having been refined to a consistent size of not very volatile parrafinic oil. If there's a version with shorter chains and cyclics mixed in, that would be the cheap, smelly stuff, whether they charge more for it or not. I have experienced cheap smelly stuff in retail valve oil, so ... live and learn.

Some players like to add in a little of some automotive additive I misremember that smells strongly of wintergreen. Wintergreen oil is good for a rust penetrating oil.

[2nd tenor]

sidebar (not helpful to the thread originator)

Back when valve rebuild jobs were viable (affordable), I would put STP Oil Treatment (as thick as honey) on REALLY worn valves, to determine whether a horribly-worn-valves instrument was worthy of a valve rebuild job.

Thanks, though a sidebar it’s still helpful information for a later date. Valve sets, I’ve never seen any for sale in the UK and hate to think what they might cost (if available).

I neglected to mention, there was a suggestion that the heavy oil could be applied directly to the piston surface and wiped down to a thin layer. The promoted virtue of these oils is that they persist in the bearing surfaces when the thinner oils have wandered off and dried up.

I guess that that’s similar to what Bloke mentioned and again helpful for a later date / different situation.

As a further aside some years back I read about and tried something similar with lithium grease and ordinary valve oil. It seemed quite effective to me but the grease does wash away in time. If I tried it again then the idea would be to (ideally) grease the valve casing and oil the piston (with normal valve oil).

Just to add a bit of info, on a visit to blokeplace several years ago, the bloke poured some of his miracle elixir down my leadpipe to help stave off red rot in my former wiseman c. I tasted diesel fuel with every breath until finally washed it out with dawn. I supposed I’m too delicate. I have no doubts that his various remedies and suggestions work.

Sometimes, quite often even, it’s a case of different strokes for different folks - I find it good to remember that.

A few days again I was quite poorly for several hours, retreating to bed and ‘emptying’ my stomach sorted me out. I’m not sure what happened but I’d been working with a particular oil earlier in the day and maybe some of it found a track off of my hands and into the fruit that I’d (later) been eating. Whatever, sometimes we can have a severe reaction to stuff and whilst I’m normally careful and cautious anyone, me included, can get caught out. I don’t really consider myself delicate but can envisage that some of us are intolerant to stuff that others have no difficulty with and vice versa.

[bloke]

That may have been some of Mrs. bloke's in-the-house lamp oil (most of which is OLD)...
...ie. I may have just run out of my 2-gallon thingie of it, which I keep out in the shop.
(These days, I keep two or three of those 2-gallon jugs, because I use it for cleaning, as well.)

The newly-shipped stuff is also usually newly-manufactured, and odorless.
(If bought in a retail store, it may well be just as OLD as the OLD lamp oil that Mrs. bloke has - which she actually uses for lamps...and - thus - stinky.)

OLD-OLD (basically, the same stuff, labeled as) "valve oil" stinks, too.

[Doc]

I have successfully used the ultra pure lamp oil and motor oil combination, and it did not present any offensive odor. I tried ultra pure lamp oil and STP oil (I don't mind the smell of STP), but the motor oil combo had almost no odor, and it worked fine. I used one of these:

bottle.jpg (38.08 KiB) Viewed 779 times

[donn]

I guess that that’s similar to what Bloke mentioned

No, not at all. (I think, anyway) that was about using oil to seal gaps, that's far too thick to reasonably play. The springs wouldn't be strong enough to drive the piston back before it was time for lunch. But it will sure seal up any leaks, and you don't need to be able to play excerpts to find out if it's a good sounding horn.

The process I mentioned was promoted as a remedy for worn valves, but in a playing context. If the piston slows down, it's too much.

[2nd tenor]

I guess that that’s similar to what Bloke mentioned

No, not at all. (I think, anyway) that was about using oil to seal gaps, that's far too thick to reasonably play. The springs wouldn't be strong enough to drive the piston back before it was time for lunch. But it will sure seal up any leaks, and you don't need to be able to play excerpts to find out if it's a good sounding horn.

The process I mentioned was promoted as a remedy for worn valves, but in a playing context. If the piston slows down, it's too much.

Apologies, in that post I was looking at one aspect only. Yes, in playing use there would be practical differences and I didn’t make that clear.

[bloke]

Continuing to support my recommendation – though it flies in the face of what is specifically requested in the original post, the problem with purchasing thicker valve oil is that none of the manufacturers really want to make it thicker beyond a certain amount, because they don’t want to be accused of selling stuff that slows down or gums up valves…when – in fact – something thicker than what they all sell as often what is really needed to maximize (ideally, even though the situation is obviously not ideal) the play ability of an old worn instrument.