YEB 321S 5th valve ideas?

[Kctuba]

After decades of never knowing what I really want (or need) I have come back to my favorite, the YEB 321. I just seem to be at home on this horn, and I never feel comfortable with compensating systems. I LOVE the Eastman Eb and Besson 983, but Low G 124 just freaks me out.

I've had this one for awhile now, but need the low E. Soooooo. Ideas on how you think we should proceed? The only thing I want is to NOT have the half step valve with all 5 being E. I have hunted for pics on Wes Jacobs piston 5th, but can't find the info I used to have.

Thanks for the visions from the gurus........

[bloke]

After decades of never knowing what I really want (or need) I have come back to my favorite, the YEB 321. I just seem to be at home on this horn, and I never feel comfortable with compensating systems. I LOVE the Eastman Eb and Besson 983, but Low G 124 just freaks me out.

I've had this one for awhile now, but need the low E. Soooooo. Ideas on how you think we should proceed? The only thing I want is to NOT have the half step valve with all 5 being E. I have hunted for pics on Wes Jacobs piston 5th, but can't find the info I used to have.

Thanks for the visions from the gurus........

THE EASIEST thing to do would be to keep your eyes peeled for a somewhat rare YEB-381 (five valve version of the 321) in good condition, purchase it, and sell your 321.

That having been said...
A few years ago I bought a shiny 381 with dents, smoothed it out really nicely, cleaned it up, and played it...
Yamaha miscalculated the necessary length for the 5th circuit, so I had to elongate the slide prior to selling the instrument.
All of that having been said, it will STILL be the easiest way (in my view) to accomplish your ultimate goal.


It's a dependent 5th, just like the (removable, but not on the E-flat tuba) 5th rotor that Yamaha sold (decades ago) to fit the YEP-321 euphonium.

As far as "independent" might be concerned...I'm pretty sure that would involve tearing stuff apart re-routing, ugly-ing up (leaving it ugly, or going back and doing restorative cosmetic work) the instrument, and a TON of labor, which I could see exceeding (what I've seen as) the market value of a used 321...and the same might go for even altering your 321 into (as much as possible, like) a 381.

I'm thinking that you already knew all about the 381, but - - I posted anyway...

[LeMark]

I honestly don't think Yamaha miscalculated the 5th valve length, I think they miscalculated the market demand for a fully chromatic instrument. A flat half step gets you a more in tune A and Ab, but certainly not a low E. Cerveny does the same thing, and I dont get it

[bloke]

The length was neither useful as an adjusted whole step nor as an adjusted half step.
I’m not insulted, but you might give me a little bit of credit, eh?
Further, it couldn’t be pulled out or pushed in to either one of those things. It was in no man’s land. Have you ever owned one?
If you have, was it different from how I describe?

[LeMark]

Yes I have. My 1903 Eb had a valve from one, and it was exactly what I described, a long half step (until I extended it to a long whole step)

[bloke]

Yes I have. My 1903 Eb had a valve from one, and it was exactly what I described, a long half step (until I extended it to a long whole step)

...I may not have worded the question clearly enough:

I was asking - specifically - if you've ever owned a YEB-381 with an oem/factory/unadulterated fifth valve circuit length.

Again:
I HAVE owned one, and
HAD I been able to manage to get it to function as EITHER an adjusted/compensated semitone OR whole-tone (with its 5th circuit tuning slide in any position in particular) I would have MUCH preferred to have NOT altered it and (simply) sold it oem.

[LeMark]

well the length of a 1/2 step valve on an Eb tuba should be consistent from horn to horn, even if it's not original to the horn it's installed on.

here's the one Norm sent me, before I put it on the horn

[bloke]

That's probably off a 381, but we're still talking past each other, and you're not really responding to my specific question.

Having owned/played an (assembled/complete) 381, and - realizing there was no way it was going to work as a whole step (ie. too short to play a 5-4 "low A-flat"), I then tried pushing it all the way in to play a 5-4 "low A".

- no go, and
- no go

I ended up selling that instrument to a young lady who was a student of one of those really well-respected retired DC military players.
1/ With the oem set-up, he wouldn't have encouraged her to buy it.
2/ Had I left it oem (useless for anything) and sold it (to anyone), I would have felt very guilty.

[LeMark]

That's weird, because that setup on any other flat half step Eb horn gives a reliable 4-5 low a, and a 2-4-5 low Ab

Can't imagine why or how yours was different

[LargeTuba]

You could really go for it.

https://web.archive.org/web/20200131093 ... ersion.htm

Just an idea.

[bloke]

If a valve circuit is actually built at a flat whole step length, it’s automatically going to be reliable. If it’s built at some in-the-cracks link length, it’s neither going to be reliable nor usable.

I’m not finding much of a point to all this side rhetoric, as my point has been that the easiest way to acquire a five valve 321 is to buy a 381 and sell the 321.

If Yamaha happened to build the fifth circuit at a usable length on that 381 instrument that would be bought: great.
>>> That having been said, the original post clearly expresses a desire to be able to play a low E natural, in which case I would rate the need to lengthen that factory 381 5th circuit at approximately a 100% likelihood.

[LeMark]

Absolutely

I'm trying to figure out why a valve slide designed as a flat half step wouldn't give you a flat half step. Should be reliable as rain.

I'm also wondering why, when the flat whole step 5th valve model has been around for decades, companies like Yamaha and Cerveny would consider a flat half step an acceptable choice

I know a flat whole step isn't a perfect solution, but it solves more than a flat half step

[bloke]

You know that I installed an adjusted semitone system on my compact B-flat. It works just as designed, because the length of it is correct for a B-flat instrument.

It’s not that the system is at fault. It’s simply that Yamaha was at fault. They made it – at least on the one that I bought to resell – too long and too short for either length, with no way to push in or pull out enough for either length. Once you accept that as fact, we don’t have anything else to scratch our heads about, yes?
(Were I compelled to >>guess<< why/how they goofed, my guess would be that someone at Yamaha got mixed up, and made a compensating semitone circuit for a B-flat tuba, rather than an E-flat tuba…?? They didn’t make a ton of these - rare, yes…??, so perhaps they made them one-at-a-time, and calculated the length each time they made one…??)
=============
This is unrelated to the above, but tied in with a general topic:
As the earlier Besson 3+1 compensating E-flat tubas were (otherwise) virtually identical to the NON-compensating Yamaha YEB-321 (other than the compensating factor), it may be important to note that - with the 3+1 compensating system, the low E (unless adjustments or additional compensation are put in place) is going to be nearly unusable, whereas - with a five valve non-compensating system - the low G is going to be nearly unusable… referring to (horribly sharp) intonation, here.

[2nd tenor]

I suspect that it’s fair to say that if someone wants an Eb instrument that plays in tune in the low register the better way forward is a four valve compensating instrument such as the packer JP 377 … or the Yamaha version of it at over double the price. (Edit. 3 plus 1 type valve ‘top’ action instruments.)

I’d wondered whether some (compensating) slide pull / trigger could be added to the YEB321, but if it were possible then surely someone would have mentioned it earlier.

Non-compensating instruments can be great, love mine, but they have their limits - well that’s my understanding - so I just accept that and work within what they do well enough.

[Kctuba]

Part of my issue is two fold. 1: I’m an old dog that just likes non-compensating fingers. 2: I’m at a point in my life where front action Eb destroys my wrist (thank you arthritis). Top action does not. And I really like the 321 I have. The set up just doesn’t lend itself to an easy fix.

[LeMark]

"easy" fix

Find a craftsman willing to order the parts needed to add a whole step, left hand thumb activated valve to your 321. They will have to order the parts from ---somewhere--- and install them.

What part of the country do you live in? Maybe we can find you a craftsman. I've added a 5th valve to 5 different instruments, two Eb tubas, two CC tubas, and a Euphonium, but I got very lucky to have the parts needed available, and I'm not timid about breaking out a dremel tool and a torch and teaching myself how to make it happen. Being a hobbyist, I dont have access to all the parts ordering services that real craftsmen do, especially yamaha

[bloke]

He teaches in the north Kansas City school District and has a fine player. I just sold a couple of JP sousaphones to his high school.

[LeMark]

The obvious choice would be to talk to Kevin Stiles and see if he has time to take on a project and if not, who he would recommend

[bloke]

yeah...

These are offered for sale, from time-to-time...

They usually sell pretty quickly, as did this one:

https://reverb.com/item/40295652-yamaha ... -fantastic

If/when you find a 381 - and the 5th circuit length might not (??) be functional, this YEB-321 slide: H3630110 should supply you with the ,689" bore inside slide tubing needed to elongate it.

Alternately, if you find a good-condition 19" bell 3+1 compensating E-flat, and - desiring the classic 15" bell sound - the YEB-321 bell should fit it.

Once you've altered a Besson, Jinbao, or what-have-you to sound like your Yamaha YEB-321 with this 15" Yamaha bell: H3630510 , you'll then have your YEB-321 - PLUS a nice removed 19" bell - that you can sell off.

[LeMark]

If I ever found one of those for a bargain price, I'd be super tempted (either the 321 or the 5 valve version)

Very underrated tubas