The Hard Case Rebuild Thread

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the elephant
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The Hard Case Rebuild Thread

Post by the elephant »

Hi! I am starting this as a place for people to show off their work or inquire about case/luggage work. It is dismaying to me that so many here no longer seem to value hard cases. I know *some* do, and this is another place to hang out here if you want to learn or share ideas.

I have no current projects to share. I am just creating this space for future use.

Well, okay, I have two case rebuilds I plan on starting in the late Autumn and try to finish in my spare time by this time next year. One is a Chinese copy of an MTS case that came with an Eastman 6/4 tuba. I plan on trying to use it as a bus case for when the MSO does runouts that are too far for me to drive to in my POV. Currently, I do not have a hard case for my Holton 345. The Eastman 6/4 tubas are noticeably smaller than a 345. (So are the Yorks, if you did not know.)

The other is a wood-shell case that is bare wood, with a lot of the outer ply of the plywood stripped off or trashed. It is not a 186 case but it is a Mirafone wood case from the 1970s, whichever model it was made for. All the hardware is gone. The plush liner is destroyed. In fact, this shell has sat exposed to the elements (but covered and off the ground) in my carport for a few years now. Oddly, it has held up very well, so I have decided to try to build it out in a way that will benefit me.

I don't intend to sell either case. And I have a few more that I probably will never use, but if I can get them refurbished (or fully rebuilt) for cheap so that a realistic price would not have me losing money, I might offer them up for sale at some point. But I'm not sure what I want to do with those cases right now.

The wood-shell case needs to be gutted and very carefully cleaned to see whether any insects have taken up residence. If so, I can toss it; I got it for free, so no loss there. I think it was for a 185 as a 186 is just a bit too tall for it. Just barely, as in it fits but not with any sort of meaningful padding. Of course, these were poorly padded anyway, so maybe it *is* a 186 case. I'll likely bring it inside after the monsoon rains have abated and it has had time to dehumidify some.

The plastic Eastman case is likewise too short for the 345. However, I gutted the crappy foam blocks and shifted them around a lot until I came up with a workable plan. Unfortunately, the valance halves for the plastic shells have to be mated together and then bent outwards at the bottom bow by about an inch. I have done this in the past; it sucks, but if you do a careful job and make it look decent, the thin plastic shell can be reshaped to fit using a heat gun. If you do it right it will not be obvious at first glance that you did any reshaping to the shell.

Inside the shell some secrets become apparent. The most important one is that both halves of the shell sport an insert at the bell end that is pop-riveted to the actual shell to provide reinforcement for the bell and the wheel holes. The bell area is pretty tight, too, so I will remove those.

The shell is a bit too narrow for how far out front the pistons sit on this tuba, so I will also cut out the section where stuff sticks up too far and rivet in a small box extension like you see on a lot of the form-fitting cases.

Once the valve extension box has been installed, the two reinforcement panels at the bell have been removed, and the bottom bow area has been extended by an inch — and it all looks okay to me — then I plan on fiberglassing the exterior of the shell halves. I have to make sure this kind of plastic will adhere to the epoxy used in the marine fiberglass kits I like to use. (It should be fine.)

After the shell has been reshaped, beefed up, and painted, I will then build out the interior with much better padding which is a high-impact closed-cell elastomer material I like to work with. It is hard if you just bump it a bit, but it absorbs a LOT of energy in hard impacts. This can be fairly thin all around the outer edge of the shell and around the bell rim, with a softer foam placed on top before the liner material encases each section. So it will have a sort of two-stage padding which ought to be just fine so long as the damned charter driver keeps the bus on the pavement. (I have been on a bus that rolled. It was horrible, and I know what a tuba in a wood-shell case looks like after it has been smashed between the wall of the luggage bay and a timpani in a touring trunk. (Hint: the timpani case won.)

So if the bus rolls over and I die, at least my wife will have a usable tuba to sell to pay for my pine box and some flowers. :coffee:

Gutting this case today taught me a lot about the corners cut today with cases, and how the fake MTS cases work while being so inexpensive.

Here are some photos of how the Holton fits when tightly packed into the bottom shell half using the craptastic Chinese foam, which is somewhere between styrofoam and foam rubber, with a little give, but if you compress it too much it disintegrates. (It is only five years old and ought not to disintegrate like this for many more years. So inferior foam is used to save money, which is fine. The whole case is a knock-off and it does its job very well for about five years, and in that time if you want to improve the case it just about falls apart once you start pulling the blocks out. The cheap shell is, in my opinion, not really that much of a compromise. I think the big money saver to the builder is in the foam and liner, as well as in the hardware. The shells seem to be as good as or better than some of the MTS or SKB cases currently sold if just a tad thinner.

In fact, the only reason I decided to take the time to do this is that the shell seems to be adequate for my needs. If I bought one of these nicer Chinese tubas with one of these fake MTS cases I would definitely keep the case and probably improve the hardware or padding if it started to get ragged out.

Okay, so it fits. But it fits like crap.
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The horn is much wider at the bottom bow than the Eastman. If I flip the bow block and smoosh it tightly this shape and thickness will work. The bell end was also padded while this was crammed in place. As things stand, the horn is too long for this shell to have any sort of usable padding. One more inch of space would work very nicely…
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The bottom block that protects the "off" side of the horn as the case sits on the ground is just about perfect. It needs to be much better foam, though. And the lid needs a matching block and another that will come down onto the 4th slide and prevent it from shifting around while in the case. The mouthpiece block is just a stupid waste of space. I will build out a storage box in this area. The lid will have a Winter-style folder storage area, too.
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With the bell padded as I want, this is how tight the bottom bow is. Bending the valance outwards an inch and heating the shell to reshape it will provide what I need. I am not sure I can make this look good, however.
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Here is the reverse: The bell padding has been removed, the bottom bow is now fully padded, and this is the space the bell has to live in. If I can reshape the shell as I want this should not be an issue.
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The valves are compressed about 1/4" with the lid open about 2", so with them being that far from the lid edge the valves will compress about halfway with the lid fully seated. A 1" tall extension box for the valves will have to be fashioned to fix this.
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That valve box needs to be installed right there…
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The reshaping would take the flattened shape of the bow end and round it thusly. It is not hard to do, but the shell might be ruined if I reshape it too much or am careless as I work. Yes, I have done this sort of work in the past.
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Most of the hardware is affixed using Phillips head screws or pop rivets. Easy peasy. However, I have not looked to see how the valance is attached. That could be an issue if I do not want to have to buy more extruded aluminum to replace it after I discover that it has to be destroyed to get it off. It looks to have been crimped on, and that is easy to remove. We shall see…
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These are the two large double-hulled areas. The reinforcement panels seem to have been glued in place. If this is typical Chinese work it will be hot glue and pretty easy to get apart.
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An unexpected nice touch is that the makers skive the edges of the reinforcement panels to make the transition from the thick area into the thinned-walled section, and not something you can feel through the liner and padding. Unexpected, to say the least, I was happy to see just how decent these shells are. The liner material and blocking are junk, the hardware is fairly decent, and the shells are excellent. Nice!
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bloke (Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:33 pm)


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Re: The Hard Case Rebuild Thread

Post by bloke »

Thanks for starting the thread.😎
Here are some random thoughts, and I guess later I’ll probably stick a re-blocking project here.
———————
Mrs. bloke is amazing at re-blocking a case.
So far, I’ve only asked her to re-block them to fit another model, rather than to re-block them to restore what was there originally.
I can figure out where an instrument needs to fit inside a shell - and can see how some of the existing padding can be repurposed, but she can actually do it. as she is quite a carder, spinner, weaver, and seamstress – and everyone here knows that she’s quite a woodwind repair person – she approaches re-blocking in those ways. I suppose I could do it, but I would be disappointed with my own work.
I think I have learned that some yellow hot glue sticks - that MTS uses - are stronger than regular white ones. I don’t know where to buy them, but they sell me them without gouging me.
————
As far as wood cases are concerned (as long as most of the material is still there at the corners) I’m so grateful that Titebond II has been developed, as it’s pretty amazing. It seems to do for wood what PVC glue does for PVC pipe.
————-
I have always admired the artistry of those wood cases - that Miraphone supplied in the 1970s - which were made in Australia, and were amazingly formed-fitted to the various models. If I stumble across one of those in remarkable condition that fit one of my instruments, that’s probably the only wood case that I would embrace.
——————
Due to the prices being too low to resist – even though I seldom need them – I have a Walt Johnson a huge case, and a Walt Johnson 4/4 case. I have loaned them to world travelers, and they have always protected their instruments, but then I’ve had to go back and either repair them myself or sheepishly ask the borrowers to have them repaired for me. I just can’t imagine putting a tuba underneath an airplane, these days. Some sort of $2000 case will probably protect a tuba, but what is there to protect the $2000 case…? 😐
——————-
molded cases:
There are things about Jakob Winter, MTS, and SKB that I like, and things about all three of them that I dislike. I don’t think any of them are perfect or ideal, even though Winter obviously cost the most. When JP - one by one - replaces their zipper cases with molded cases, their frames are quite impressive – though heavy. As they are included with the instruments, the blocking material is not amazing, but – in my experience – the molded frames are, and some have mistaken them for fiberglass. I have managed to secure a case for everything but my F tuba, as I’m moving over to cases. It will take quite a while, because they barely have enough for themselves, but I’ve got the Hirsbrunner C tuba copy case on order, because it’s long enough to re-block it for the F tuba.
————-
I am tired of discovering small dents in my instruments after unpacking them (from bags - from nice expensive bags) at home after jobs. (shrugging shoulders, and hitting “submit”)
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the elephant (Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:32 am)
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Re: The Hard Case Rebuild Thread

Post by the elephant »

Agreed regarding the discovery of small dings after work.

After all the labor I have put in on these four tubas I want a decent hard case for each one. I have that huge MTS case that holds the Holton but that is like a mile too long (that I got from Robert C.) that would make a GREAT bus case for the better 186 as it has a lot of space to fill with good padding that fits the tuba as an Anvil case does. That tuba has a blue Miraphone bag that I would like to improve upon. I have that unused black leather Cronkhite that I bought for it but am afraid of having the cats destroy it, so that is why it is for sale. I don't *want* to sell it. I *want* to USE it. But it is too nice to allow them to slash it up like they did my Holton's Cronkhite leather bag. They do not tear up the Cordura bags, so I will end up with those, and that is why I am now getting back into hard cases.

The wood shell case will likely go to the homebrew CC 186. (It has a crappy gig bag right now, but that is all. If after I change the leadpipe and re-re-repair the holes in the Swiss cheese bottom bow I will buy it a nice bag; it plays well.)

The F has a factory case, which is one of the old Winter wooden cases that is lovely. It has a blue Miraphone 186 bag, which is too tall and a little too girthy for the tuba, so it will be replaced someday. (Finding a good side-loader that nicely fits that Willson-framed tuba has been a challenge.)

So the Eastman case that I picked up from Bill P. will, with any luck, go to my 345-ish thing. I am pretty sure I can swing the bow end's reshaping. If I can do that then everything else will be pretty easy, if time-consuming. And with the pandemic killing my two-decade-long teaching program I find myself with a LOT of free time these days.
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Re: The Hard Case Rebuild Thread

Post by bloke »

I believe that - as a common practice these days - I see that molded cases are made in sizes that are long enough for just about anything imaginable, and their bottom bow ends are blocked down to fit shorter tubas. That’s how my L-O-N-G Winter 6/4 case is made to fit my Miraphone new acquisition on the inside, as well as that case for the Chinese-made C Hirsbrunner copy - as I mentioned above.
I’m thinking that the new piston JP F tuba (2250-like) case is sort of shaped like your Swiss instrument, so those hard cases might be a possibility – once production finally catches back up with demand (and our incomes catch back up with what was deliberately done to them - if that ever happens)… but – at least on the list – their cases are lower priced than the brands mentioned above… it’s just that (as with a very old joke about pork chops) they (ie. “that which has an affordable price”) are not available.

The ancient new/old stock MTS case that Mrs. bloke re-blocked to fit my Holton really-really makes me smile. The tuba is 32 inches tall, and the case is a scant 37” long…and we even squeezed in a box for mouthpiece and oil with a lid. …no wheels/45 pounds instrument in case/fine with me.
I lucked into a brand new MTS case - which is the size for a 186 - for my 5450. It was damaged in shipment and replaced (another retailer who is very friendly to me). “Doc“ picked it up for me, and I’ll get it from him sometime. It has a karate chop in the plastic, but that’s very repairable, and I think the valance just needs to be tapped out with a mallet to line up with itself in one little spot. I have put the 5450 in one of these cases before, and all that needs to be done is that a large pad on the open side of the clamshell on the bottom half needs to be trimmed down by about an inch, because it’s just too tight for a 5450 otherwise. The cimbasso has a good anvil style case with wheels on one end… I snagged it from someone’s Jinbao, after they bought themselves a bag.
euphonium: I really don’t understand why people purchase bags for these, as carrying them around in a hard case just isn’t a big deal, but that’s none of my business. Everyone has their preferences and their reasons.
The two-part Besson instruments: I’ve actually rounded up original cases, but - for the E flat - I’m thinking that – with the 19-inch UPRIGHT bell which I fashioned for it – it might fit (put together) in a Winter B-flat Sovereign case that I have upstairs…(??) THIS is a lower priority, because I have not removed every single dent from that instrument - as of yet.
———-
I’ve changed my mind about many things in the past, so I’m not getting rid of these nice bags - particularly as I’ve designed a way to get them out from under a foot and away from cats. I did about 3 1/2 hours of hot, tough, meticulous, and dangerous mowing yesterday and had planned to go on and work on a tuba…but I was done.
the point: I’m obviously not 30 years old anymore.
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the elephant (Sun Aug 28, 2022 8:01 am)
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Re: The Hard Case Rebuild Thread

Post by matt g »

While this thread looks quite interesting, I do have that big MTS case sitting in my basement taking up space if anyone is interested…
Dillon/Walters CC (sold)
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Re: The Hard Case Rebuild Thread

Post by the elephant »

I'm flat broke right now (and not really in need, either) but post the make, model, and rough shell dimensions. Someone interested in making a custom case out of it might PM you. I think case rebuilds will become a nice side interest for some of the Frankentuba guys.
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Re: The Hard Case Rebuild Thread

Post by bloke »

I would be interested in someone posting about:

“Molded cases are typically made out of blah blah type of plastic, and this is how to repair cracks in it.”

I’ve had some luck with PVC cement, but something tells me there’s a better way.
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Re: The Hard Case Rebuild Thread

Post by matt g »

the elephant wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:30 pm I'm flat broke right now (and not really in need, either) but post the make, model, and rough shell dimensions. Someone interested in making a custom case out of it might PM you. I think case rebuilds will become a nice side interest for some of the Frankentuba guys.
It's the MTS 1270V. Build to hold the MW 2165/2265.

Exterior measurements:
~45.5" long
~28" wide at the bell
~24" wide at midline
~22" wide at the bottom bow end

Thick/high/whatever enough to hold a 2165, which is a relatively thick horn.
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Re: The Hard Case Rebuild Thread

Post by the elephant »

How much?
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Re: The Hard Case Rebuild Thread

Post by matt g »

the elephant wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 7:33 pmHow much?
I'd be willing to part with it for $350.

Here's a bunch of photos. I managed to keep my feet out of the pics. My MW 2165 is in the case for reference.



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the elephant (Sun Aug 28, 2022 8:55 pm) • bloke (Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:53 am)
Dillon/Walters CC (sold)
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