The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

Projects, repair topics, and Frankentubas
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the elephant
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Re: The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

Post by the elephant »

The pillow block I made more or less presented itself to me in another form. (I save everything because it can all be reused or made into something else.) I have to do some filing and sanding to it, but the form it is in right now would probably be just fine.

I cut up the old 5th lever bracket. It was of no use to me as it was. In fact, I hated it because it worms around so much when you apply heat to it.

Anyway, this is what I used to quickly make this new part. The measurements just happened to work out to within a millimeter of what I need. Nice!

This…
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… became this…
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Re: The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

Post by Tubajug »

Looks great! :clap:

Your pillow block reminds me of a Zippo...
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the elephant (Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:46 pm)
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Re: The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

Post by the elephant »

My wife said the same thing as soon as she saw the photo.

:laugh:
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Re: The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

Post by the elephant »

I worked out a closer-to-final shape for my 6th linkage. This incorporates the new guide block as well as the new lever end location. It is *very* close to the brass roc mockup from last year. In fact, it is close enough that I think I can reshape it and braze on a stump to get it long enough. I can use that as my final pattern for the stainless steel arm that will go on the tuba.

The angle in red in the annotated photo was arrived at without any reference to the older version. In fact, I removed the valve set to do this work and decided to try and come up with something new, working from the other direction to hook the valve and lever together. Despite this, after the photos and some examination, I decided that incorporating bends (indicated with the two red circles) would make this arm just about as good as it can get for such a weird routing.

Then I noted how similar the two were. Whoops! HAHAHA!!! I guess I got some mileage out of that idea.

Pics…

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Re: The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

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Today I made a fairly decent (accurate, but scarred up) mockup of the 6th valve linkage arm. First I revisited the first example I made from brass rod last year when I did not know where the levers would be but was concerned with what side of the piston set it would run along. The lever end's shape ended up being sot on, but the angle (clocking) from the main length of the rod was about 25º off. Likewise, the original guide block was to be much closer to the 1st valve bottom cap. Now that I have actual levers and they occupy a specific space within the tuba and I have a guide block that works, I have two of the three contact points nailed down.

So I have been eyeballing the old rod and noting how things need to be bent to make it work. I was hoping to re-bend this rod as I am running out and it won't ever be used, so scarring it up some is fine. But no, it is about 2" too short. The current end needs to have a section that continues at a different angle from the lever itself. The *other* rod, that ran down the other side of the pistons ended up being hammered as straight as I could get it, and it became today's victim.

I ended up just tacking the guide block down to the pistons with a dot of solder so I could utilize it in lining stuff up; it was the pivot between the two ends. Once I had the lever end bent and cut off where it needs to be, I was able to tape it to the lever. That fixed the rod in space, so I could work on the nastiness that is the valve end.

What a PITA. But I finally got both a lever that fits correctly AND that can be installed and removed. (Yeah, *that* was an unexpected issue.)

I am happy with most aspects of this shape and will work to refine it this week. The valve side will end in a steel hinge rod, and a short arm with a one-plane rotation will be peened on permanently. To the end of that short arm, a Minibal will be affixed, which will connect to the stop arm.

The guide block will have to have the hole rounded out on both sides to allow it to move like the fulcrum of a see-saw while not allowing the rod to rattle around. I think I will machine a piece of Delrin to fit between the two halves of the guide block to make this possible without making it noisy.

The lever end will have an "S" arm-style "T" hinge to the rod. This will prevent any longitudinal rotation of the linkage at that end. The half-T at the valve end will do the same. Soooooo, if I make everything fit accurately enough, there will be no slop and little to no sound as it moves. The rod will be made from the same 7/32" stainless rod I have been using, which I like quite a bit for stuff like this.

Here are some pics. Keep in mind that this is a very rough part, with gouges from Vicegrips and the jaws of my vice. The valve end was not correct when the pics were taken. I used the pics to make it easier for my weak, old guy peepers to see stuff in much greater detail. It has since been rebent and shortened. So what I have now is not the same as in the pics, but it's *almost* so. (I am trying to say that I'm *NOT* going back out there to take more pics today. Nope.)

The order of the bends is still not clear to me. All the marking up is from having bends that were preventing me from making other bends. Once I work that out I have to have two lengths of stainless rod, the first being a hopeful practice run that might end up being the final product. The other is a fallback, in case I FUBAR the first one. (It takes like two weeks to get more, so there it is.)

Looking down the rod from the lever to the guide block…
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Upper half…
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Lower half…
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Oooooo! Neat! A wide shot… :coffee:
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This is more or less the gap that the short arm will have to fill. The left end will have a Minibal and the other end will be permanently riveted to the rod so that it can rotate in only one plane. The Minibal will eat up any minor rotation needed in other planes.
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These are the "length and angle" details that I had to clean up after looking at the photos. It is difficult to get my fat head in that close to confirm angles and lengths and such. Taking photos really helps me clean stuff up.
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THE EVOLUTION OF AN IDEA — There are three other, earlier wire mockups that changed as I determined where the two ends had to be to make this work. The angle of the left ends differed because between that bottom one and the two newer ones the lever rack ended up being mounted in a different place at a different angle and distance from the piston set.
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Tubajug (Mon Sep 05, 2022 6:28 am)
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Re: The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

Post by bloke »

I could post a "laugh emoji", but you already know what I'm considering re: Fa'Ba'...so I deserve at least as many chuckles, if not more.

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… ‘ only meant in good humor…This is going to turn out fine, and it’s interesting to offer two different fingering patterns on the same instrument.
admission: The pictures and the design are becoming a bit too complicated for me to follow (in two-dimensional pictures), and I’m eager to see everything assembled, so it’s easier for me to understand.
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York-aholic (Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:00 pm)
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Re: The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

Post by the elephant »

Well, I made the short arm (which has nothing whatsoever to do with the old military "short arm inspection", heh, heh…) and worked on the guide block.

GUIDE BLOCK

The block needs to have a close-fitting ID but only a small contact surface with the linkage rod itself. It needs to minimize any shifting of the rod along its path while allowing for the small bit of deflection I expect such a long, curved rod will have when the lever is pressed. I imagine this rod will want to bow slightly right at that "corner". The purpose of the block is to force the rod to stay within its imaginary track or pathway, but a small bowing at that location would cause the rod to bind up. (And no one likes it when their rod binds up.)

So my solution is to minimize the actual surface that the rod will touch, even if it goes slightly out of alignment.

I tried one of my Noga deburring tools, but — alas — it was one that I have never used before. And that sucker is SHARP! So when I started turning it within the guide block's hole it bit in and started corkscrewing into the brass! This is a very bad thing!!!

So I got the faces of the hole opened up, but too much and very unevenly. I made the cuts in a few seconds and then spent quite a bit of time with that tool, several grits of sandpaper, and finally a Swiss file in order to salvage the block. (For various reasons I have to make another one. This one was made using existing cast-off parts that were chopped up to suit my needs. But more space between the two cap-head bolts is needed, and I want to use new material that is not so scarred up. My trial-and-error work today does not really affect anything; it just wastes more time.)

Anyway, I was able to open up the guide block's hole to fit the larger 7/32" diameter rod. Nothing exploded. Nobody died. Fair enough.

SHORT ARM

The long rod is like a convoluted extension of the lever and not the linkage itself. At the end, where it pops up between the two slide tubes is, in effect, the end of the lever. So, between that and the stop arm, a complete linkage arm is still needed. To avoid the dreaded "link flop" I pinned one end to a simple swing arm and moves only on one axis, unlike a Heim joint like the Minibal. Any inaccuracy along the plane the stop arm travels will be very small, and the Miibal will eat that up. Having the other end fixed rigidly will prevent the long arm from being able to flop around, too. Having a T hinge on the lever end will make things rigid like an S arm. (Remember that I made a T hinge between the 5th lever and the Z rod for the same purpose: to prevent the long, wide arm from flopping around during use, causing all sorts of noise, and probably some sort of interesting freak show for the audience. A typical Heim joint is not very good in this regard.)

I reused one of the *many* prototype levers that I made (and quickly cast aside) while sorting the issues in the 5th thumb lever geometry. I cut it to length, end-drilled it, used an M3x0.5 tap, installed some all-thread, then bent the lever arm to help it make the curve around the stop arm. This effectively captured the all-thread, so that sucker cannot back out. I installed a small "jam" nut and the Minibal, and it looks pretty decent. I need to clean it up, some, though. Right now it is held in place using a brass shoulder screw with a shoulder that happens to be the exact, same length as the hinge tube, so it can be tightened down and does not bind. I want to replace the screw with some drill rod and then peen that over a small rivet, like on S arm linkages, but that can happen later.

I also made a completely different short arm. It was a challenge because it was made from flat bar stock, and I had to hand shave the end into a rod of the right diameter to use an M3x0.5 die. I have never cut threads into a rod I eyeballed from bar stock. I would have used it, too, but despite my trying to make the transition from the round threaded end back to its flat bar profile at the hinge end, well, it looked pretty fugly. However, it is strong and of the correct dimensions. If I need it. the thing is in a box ready to go. I will show it in the pic, too, but none of this stuff was cleaned up after having been sanded and filed on for hours. *ALL* of it is pretty darn fugly.

It turns out that I *do* have the needed 7/32" stainless rod for this. I will grit my teeth and try to make this horrible shape with it tomorrow. I haven't been a drinking man for many years now, but this one might merit a cold beer if I can get it to work.

I made a video. It is the typical craptacular affair that all my videos are. I am not posting it, I need to make it again, and this time use notecards or a script. It was truly a cinematic disaster. Here, instead, is the single photo I took.

Fun stuff to know: Mrs. E put my iPhone Xr through a steam/sanitize wash cycle after my having worked out in the poison ivy. I missed that my phone was in my pocket, and so did she. Whoopsie!!! Anyway, after turning it off, removing the SIM tray (to allow more airflow), and leaving it TF alone for four days, it works fine. The screen is screwed up but it still works great — including the camera. I am amazed that this phone is so tough.

EDIT: I added in two vidcaps from that deleted video. The focus is not fantastic on the photo of the short arm as it was moving rather quickly from right to left in the video. And yes, I burned TF out of my fingertip today, and you can see the blister in one of the pics. I also broke three drill bits, two brass rods, and one tap. It was a pretty bad day, all told, so I am that much more pleased with what I managed to get done despite this.

Starting at the top:

• Schaublin "Unibal" link (came with the tuba) It has too wide of a head for this project.
• A lever hinge rod of the needed diameter to replace the brass shoulder screw.
• The guide block's bore has been opened-up to prevent binding but is incompletely rounded.
• The winner of the Short Arm Competition, with its nice bend, fixed swing arc, and Minibal on the end.
• The runner-up in the Short Arm Competition, it's fugly because I shaped it using a cutoff wheel. D'OH!

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Re: The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

Post by bloke »

Those supports you built are impressive and are a tribute to the care you take in your hand-work...

I might wonder, though, if some fat not-too-tight nylon washers might control those long levers, allow them to rotate within the nylon washers and also not be noisy. (What do I know...?? I'm not even following the project very well, as it becomes more complex.)

Could you friction-fit these into drilled brass supports - which would be brazed to flanges ?

https://www.mcmaster.com/bushings/elect ... washers-6/

(Since this is probably stupid, I ask for forgiveness in advance.) :smilie6:
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the elephant (Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:18 pm)
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Re: The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

Post by the elephant »

I need to see how noisy or grabby it is first. Earlier I had mentioned giving Delrin or Teflon a try if needed.

Thanks!
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bloke (Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:27 am)
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Re: The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

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I purchased a few small items today. One of these is an Allied A222 mouthpipe. I am excited to finally get to replace the one it came with because I dislike it for several very specific reasons. Some of these are musical, and some concern how the pipe is bent to fit the horn.

I also bought some additional rod and bar stock and some other items.

Thank goodness I finally got some of this stuff. Times have been tough, but occasionally I can make small purchases like these.

The MSOBQ is playing on a Chamber Series program on Saturday night. They want to do this short piece while standing. I am not sure I can hold up this tuba for that long. It has no strap rings. I have no strap. That means I will literally have to hold it up using my left hand, which makes slide adjustments all but impossible. Plus, it is a heavy horn, weighing more than my CC 186. I will try to stand at dress rehearsal but plan to take my double bass stool just in case. If I do this I will have to attach a small bit of black rubber sheet to the bottom bow to keep it from sliding down my lap as I play.

First World problems…

:tuba:
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Re: The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

Post by York-aholic »

standing tuba stand? Probably not something you can find/borrow by then though...
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the elephant (Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:10 pm)
Some old Yorks, Martins, and perhaps a King rotary valved CC
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Re: The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

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I don't use stands at all. I just don't like them. I want the horn to move with me and not be glued to the floor, me hanging onto the backside of it like some bloated pole dancer.

BAHAHAHA!!!

More importantly, though: That's a lot of $$$ for something I would use maybe two or three times — ever — before I retire from playing.
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Re: The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

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I have to use this tuba for a Chamber Series program tomorrow, Friday and Saturday.

It has been apart for some time and has become quite cruddy. (A bit of technical jargon, heh, heh…)

Today I worked on cleaning up the edges and the rounded corners of the big plate that the 5th and 6th levers mount to. I also tried to sand/lap/file/buff the scribe marks out, but I was a ham-fisted idiot when I made them. Note to self: Don't scribe deeply parts that have to look nice. Just don't.

Then I did a "half-fast" polishing job and slapped her back together. (I *love* being able to do this so easily. It is one of the best modifications I have ever done. Same with the Holton. Everything is easier like this.) I will finish polishing her on Saturday morning. The leadpipe, bottom bow, and inside of the bell still need to be "debrowned". I did this because I decided to buff some of the solder work on the bugle and wash off the gross surface. After spot-buffing, I went over the area with polish to sort of dull the buffer's work and blend it into the patina a little better. That looked really weird, like shiny mange, so I just kept going. A full-on polishing job takes me about five or six hours; this only took me about one hour. No water spots were harmed during this process.

This photo allows you to clearly see how the brace between 1st and the bell fits, and how the lever rack is a part of that.

No levers, though.

Not… quite… yet…

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Re: The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

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the elephant wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:13 pm I don't use stands at all. I just don't like them. I want the horn to move with me and not be glued to the floor, me hanging onto the backside of it like some bloated pole dancer.

BAHAHAHA!!!

More importantly, though: That's a lot of $$$ for something I would use maybe two or three times — ever — before I retire from playing.

No, I’m not a fan of playing stands either but it was a thought (to borrow)…
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the elephant (Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:17 pm)
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Re: The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

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Tonight my 29th season with the MSO begins. My first concert with the orchestra was in September 1993.

The MSOBQ performed some nice antiphonal Gabrieli (with the cathedral organ standing in for Choir II) and it came off great! The Kurath worked very well.

I can't wait to get the 6th valve rigged up so I can start using it. Right now I have the screw in the rear cap just tight enough to prevent it from accidentally rotating while I'm playing. I have it set up so nicely that the weight of the stop arm will eventually rotate the valve about halfway open. Those little set screws can be quite handy!

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Re: The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

Post by bloke »

@the elephant

It’s fine to be too busy to work on your F tuba alterations, but we just want to know that you’re OK, since we haven’t heard from you.
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Re: The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

Post by the elephant »

Huh? I have posted every day this past week here since my last post in this thread.

I guess no one reads my posts. I am invisible. HAHAHA!!!

:facepalm2:
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Re: The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

Post by bloke »

' sorry...' missed 'em.

good, then. :smilie8: :thumbsup:
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the elephant (Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:32 pm)
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Re: The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

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the elephant wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:25 pm Tonight my 29th season with the MSO begins. My first concert with the orchestra was in September 1993.

The MSOBQ performed some nice antiphonal Gabrieli (with the cathedral organ standing in for Choir II) and it came off great! The Kurath worked very well.

I can't wait to get the 6th valve rigged up so I can start using it. Right now I have the screw in the rear cap just tight enough to prevent it from accidentally rotating while I'm playing. I have it set up so nicely that the weight of the stop arm will eventually rotate the valve about halfway open. Those little set screws can be quite handy!

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Congrats on starting year 29. That’s pretty impressive. Not many people stick to one job/employer anywhere near that long anymore. This is my 23rd year teaching in the same district, so you’ve got me by a few...
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the elephant (Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:33 pm)
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Re: The Great Kurath Re-Tubing

Post by Doc »

the elephant wrote: Wed Sep 07, 2022 7:13 pm I don't use stands at all. I just don't like them. I want the horn to move with me and not be glued to the floor, me hanging onto the backside of it like some bloated pole dancer.

BAHAHAHA!!!

More importantly, though: That's a lot of $$$ for something I would use maybe two or three times — ever — before I retire from playing.
You got something against bloated pole dancers?
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the elephant (Sat Sep 17, 2022 9:16 pm)
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