that annoying/crappy/sharp-as-hell 5-2-3-4 valve combination

[bloke]

Due to some sort of snafu, I lost ALL my text, but here's the picture that went along with it.

Basically, I'm looking for a simpler and optional/detachable solution for (yes, occasionally written) a NON-false tone and IN TUNE way to execute the 5-2-3-4 "double low C" when playing a 5-valve B-flat tuba.

If you have comments, you might hold them back until I've gotten over being annoyed, and have replaced the lost accompanying text.

(I'm already somewhat annoyed with a well-known a parts jobber, that sent shitty trombone inside slide tubes, I was nice about it - asking for better ones - and they got all huffy.)

[arpthark]

NOTE: PLEASE READ ONLY AFTER YOU ARE NO LONGER ANNOYED:



1345?

[bloke]

1345?

considerably flatter - model-to-model-to-model - than the other is sharp.

Another thing - in the lost text - was that false tones are quick to respond, but (as far as easily-targeted intonation and stability are concerned) not always the best choices.

[cjk]

still annoyed. didn't read.

[bloke]

still annoyed. didn't read.

[cjk]

Serious thoughts:

Is there another reason to move the 3rd valve slide instead of the 4th?

In pictures of that model, it looks like it might have 3x fourth valve slides? Would it not be easier to trigger/rod/springs one of those?

The fifth valve slide is very close to the first. Does it have enough pull for that note given that it's so close? Might be easier to rig something up there?

A rounded "hook" might be easier to deal with and easier to make than a huge ring? Probably also easier to free yourself from if you forget you're attached? Edit: I misread this initially. looks like it's more hook like.

Would a 2nd valve gadget solve this problem? It's got a lot of other uses.

[matt g]

I’d second the second valve kicker in a second.

[bloke]

I’d second the second valve kicker in a second.

nonstarter.

Serious thoughts:

Is there another reason to move the 3rd valve slide instead of the 4th?

In pictures of that model, it looks like it might have 3x fourth valve slides? Would it not be easier to trigger/rod/springs one of those?

The fifth valve slide is very close to the first. Does it have enough pull for that note given that it's so close? Might be easier to rig something up there?

A rounded "hook" might be easier to deal with and easier to make than a huge ring? Probably also easier to free yourself from if you forget you're attached? Edit: I misread this initially. looks like it's more hook like.

Would a 2nd valve gadget solve this problem? It's got a lot of other uses.

The earlier idea (judged by me to be too RubeGoldberg-ish, along with possible main tuning issues) of a seesaw gadget (which would push out the main slide simultaneously as the #1 slide was pulled) has been rejected.

I'm looking for a way to keep my hand on the #1 slide (never removing it) and (as "double low C" is seldomly requested) design a removable/store-able (though the instrument would fit in the case without removing it) device which allows for a non-false-tone (stable) "double low C" which is tuned.

A #2 slide trigger would require taking my hand off the #1 slide and then having to "find" it again.

The low F-sharp (2-3) rides a bit sharp (with the other three 2-3 pitches all asking for the same #3 slide position), so this could also be used for that (if used more often that "occasionally")...and (again) without removing my hand from it's position. All woodwind instruments (and all other brass instruments) are set up without a requirement of repositioning one of the hands.

pianos...?? Well - being percussion instruments, a significant percentage of those require changing the locations of the hands.

Joking aside...(Though quite comfortable - once there) I have to "fish" my arm through this instrument to get to the #1 slide, and I just don't wish to "un-fish" and "re-fish" it (in time, and within a small portion of an second in time). The left forearm is easy to move, and not a taxing motion.

[cjk]

Serious thoughts 2.0:

The old Miraphone "sharp 2+3" 5th valve interval probably fixes this note (1,2,4,5 or 3,4,5) but makes the low Db (1,4,5 or 2,4,5) worse instead?

Maybe a changeable fifth valve slide or slide extension?

Shorten the fifth valve slide to a flat half step (like on your other B tuba). Low C = 12345 and first valve tuneable. No low B, but that bee doesn't make any honey, so who needs it?
With a flat half step 5th, you could also 1+2+5 your low F# to make it flatter.

A very wise man taught me that 6 valve tubas have a lot fewer of these problems.

Interchangeable slide system like on some of the old William Bell model CCs which could be rearranged several different ways? Maybe that could cover flat half step, flat whole step, and sharp 2+3?

[bloke]

A second two-whole-tone-length alternate 5th slide would be quite large (LONG), difficult to store in the form-fitted case, and could easily screw up pitches other than "double low C" - occurring in the same passage where a "double low C" might occur.

There's no room (detachable mouthpipe tube approaches at an angle, per classic kaiser b-tubas) for a 6th valve, and - if I piece of bent nickel silver rod will fix both a low F-sharp and a double-low C, why not install that, rather than an expensive rotor, expensive tubing, wonky (who knows what?) linkage, and a bunch of burned lacquer on a very handsome instrument?

Again, I rejected the seesaw gadget, due to it being too wonky.

A direct-action device (which would fit comfortably about my wrist) - so far - wins the "it just ain't all that wonky" contest.

The only contest that it loses - so far - is the "being peer-reviewed" one.

The FF semitone fifth valve thing works for double-low C, but Miraphone (to my knowledge) doesn't manufacture a slide bow which the spacing of the #5 outside slide tubes define, if I asked Christian (Niedermayer) to make one, he would sigh (deeply), and I don't have the will to play around with cutting a Miraphone 21.2mm #1 slide bow, precision-fitting it back together, brazing it - along the center-line, and cleaning it up. Also, it wouldn't help with low F-sharp, as would the bent piece of nickel-silver rod.

I'm going to reconfigure the #3 slide tubing (as shown in the picture) anyway. This has been "the plan" for weeks.
Once that's done (and works slippery-well), I'll then have the OPTION of deciding whether to bend a piece of nickel silver rod to mimic the edited picture.

nirvana: (to me) "playing gorgeous chords (brass section or entire orchestra) - at any given volume level - completely tuned, and without having to favor pitches" (ie: RESONANCE)

[bloke]

Alright… I looked at the 98 tubing layout, and yeah, it’s tight. I thought there would be room to put a lever up to the are near the first valve crook, but that seems to be no good.

[bloke]

I think this will work out, and - if it doesn’t - I shall not have lost a lot of time and energy in it.

[cjk]

Other thoughts:
You might consider making the third valve slide hook/handle up and down adjustable to prevent rework if it is initially too long or too short. I would also potentially see different chair/ different playing situation where you might want it adjusted a little up or a little down?

You might also consider attaching it to the side of the slide which is closest to the bell. if it's up and down adjustable, you could just adjust it down to be out of the way when you didn't want it rather than removing it. When out of the way, it would tuck itself close to the rest of the slide.

It sounds like moving the third slide will solve all of the problems you want it to solve, so it's cjk approved. I know you were eagerly awaiting my approval.

Pink and green visual, no artistic ability included:

owNo2FY3.jpg (73.95 KiB) Viewed 1251 times

[bloke]

I’m sure I’ll find that the silly drawing that I made needs to be reconsidered in at least one or two ways, but the instrument always rests on my lap, so playing position is not going to change.

The “double low C” thing will be nice to be able to fix, but – in reality – I strongly suspect that I’ll be using it more often for a (shorter) upward pull to fix low F-sharp.

(I don’t use any playing stands, and I never rest my instruments on chair seats.)

[b.williams]

Use your Eb, F or cc.

[iiipopes]

Add your 6th compensating valve that you did to another project some years ago so the fingering is 56234. You could even make it a dependent valve since that is the only note you would use it on.

[bloke]

I am realizing that I can use the current long side tubing pair of the #3 slide as the short side – based on the crappy drawing earlier in this thread, as the long side is just about exactly the length (plenty close enough) that I’m wishing for the short side to be, so all I have to do is to make a new pair of long side tubes. That wild curved tube that approaches from below (to complete the #3 circuit by feeding the short side slide pair) is so long and flexible, that I should have no problem achieving perfect alignment. I’m tempted to screw with this today, as there just isn’t a whole lot of chance for messing this up.
—————
As far as the venting is concerned, I did like I usually do and did it with the rotors in the casings, blasted water through them - after working the burr down by rotating the drill bit, and then just epically oiled the valves over and over again and worked them until they didn’t stick at all.
——-
This is redundant from some earlier post, but probably will also shorten the #1 slide bow - though I hate to, because the alignment is so perfect…but whatever. (Second space C and B-natural are quite close - with the #1 slide all the way in, but it still requires about two or three cents of lipping. I may not be able to hear the grass grow, but I can hear (and feel) two or three cents.
——-
I am wondering about sending Miraphone the exact inside spacing measurement of the #1 slide, and having them make me a second one from scratch with a shorter bow - made of nickel silver, and with an epic coating of epoxy lacquer, since my hand is on it constantly.

[bloke]

I have a guy and his kid showing up to buy a JP/Rath trombone, so I gotta get cleaned up (quick!), but here are SOME of the replacement #3 slide parts that I - just now - hurriedly knocked out. I believe I did a good job (on the outside slide tube) of imitating both ends (style-wise) of an oem tube...yes? I'm uploading pictures NOW, but will come back later and add more (black, instead of blue) text.

OK...
They've left, and are happy...
------------------------------------------------------
...so the goals are to
- align the #3 slide MUCH better.
- elongate the TUNING RANGE of the #3 slide
- further defacto elongate that range by only allowing the slide's tuning to be pushed in c. 3/8" too short (rather than an inch too short)...so the TOP ends of the OUTSIDE slide tubes are going to be around 5/8" (maybe even 3/4" HIGHER than they are now.

I'm moving the LONG outside slide over to the SHORT side, and making a LONGER outside slide tube for the long side.

BOTH inside slide tubes are too short to use, are (oem) too loose (just sayin') and the slide is horribly misaligned...so all this will be a GOOD thing.

If I do the "attached to the left wrist" thing (or some other thing), I'll be able to pull the #3 slide out (to help low F-sharp a little bit, and to help double-low C a LOT) without taking my left thumb and index finger off the #1 slide.







with apologies to the beloved manufacturer, but - sometimes - the blunt truth is the blunt truth.

[bloke]

I have too many “everything elses” to do today to finish this up. However, it has occurred to me that I really only need a concave cradle on the underside to meet my wrist, and a Velcro band around my wrist for pulling the slide up.
Velcro lasts a long time, and can be found at Walmart. I like things that are simple. They tend to continue to work.
So I guess the nickel silver rod cradle will be threaded to a flange on the slide bow, but just not be any more of a circle than just a cradle on the underside of my wrist. I guess I could slip some vacuum hose over the cradle for comfort. Having not yet completed this project, obviously I can still change my mind and even abandon it.

[Ricardo]

What about a trigger/lever soldered to the #1 slide, but using bicycle cable (instead of fixed linkages) to transfer movement to whatever other slide needs to move?

So you can pull/push the #1 slide as much as you like and then independently push the attached lever to action the third or whatever slide