difficult transformations, psychologically

[bloke]

Young music students receive a tremendous amount of encouragement, opportunities for awards/recognition, and ataboys as long as they are spending money – or someone is spending money in their behalf – in the music education industry. (i’m not specifically referring to a degree in “music education“, but generally in being educated as a musician.)
Once they leave this system, they suddenly find themselves no longer being treated as princes and princesses, but - often, seemingly reluctantly - as reluctantly hired help, whether they are hired as teachers or as performers.

Discuss…or contradict.

[bloke]

Young music students receive a tremendous amount of encouragement, opportunities for awards/recognition, and ataboys as long as they are spending money – or someone is spending money in their behalf – in the music education industry. (I’m not specifically referring to a degree in “music education“, but generally - as “being educated as a musician”.)

Once they leave this system, they suddenly find themselves no longer being treated as princes and princesses, but - often, seemingly - as reluctantly hired help, whether they are hired as teachers or as performers.

Discuss…or contradict.

[windshieldbug]

Very true...
but the same can be said for almost any profession. Once you get past the stars, the defensive linemen are the bulk of any endeavor...
(see what I did there?)

[York-aholic]

Intrinsic motivation.

I work a lot to develop it with my 2nd grade students. It is an uphill battle, but it is there.

[York-aholic]

.

[UncleBeer]

Ironic that so many Institutions of Higher Learning pat themselves on the back for recently starting to offer "Business of Music" type courses. Which of course bear no resemblance whatsoever to the world of professional music. Go figure.

[Mary Ann]

I noted long ago that the less likely you are to be able to make a good living with your degree, the more likely you are to have heavy scholarship support.

In engineering, I did not encounter what you are talking about. Yes, newly graduated engineers have to prove themselves by their work, but at least when I was in the field, we were highly valued for that work. In music, yup, hired help -- along the same lines as the kitchen staff. Even high level amateur groups, people "pay to play" even when there is admission charged. I definitely understand why in some genres people only make recordings, like Seldom Scene, one of my very favorite bluegrass groups.

[bort2.0]

I think people, especially college students, have an unhealthy expectation of career and salary lining up with hobbies and interests.

I mean, how many stories are there of famous composers and famous artists and famous musicians who are absolutely broke, down on their luck, struggling, poor health, lots and lots of bad things only to be revered and esteemed after their death in a way that never happened during their life. These are not people that were rich just because they are famous now.

There are always outliers. The difference is, with TV, radio, internet.. those outliers are extremely visible in a way of never existed before. So the people that are the rarest of rare cases and the becoming extremely famous while they're alive, and are able to make incredible amounts of money from that.

In a lot of ways, this is a good thing and advances society. And in a lot of ways, it sets a lot of unhealthy expectations for a lot of people.

[Three Valves]

I for one, can be extremely complimentary if you shower me with tens of thousands of dollars.

[York-aholic]

Going to college to prepare for a career (make a living) versus going to school to enjoy your hobby/interests or to 'find yourself'...

[bloke]

I for one, can be extremely complimentary if you shower me with tens of thousands of dollars.

This is the music school ("conservatory") where my kid went to school:

2022-23 Direct Costs
Undergraduate
Domestic Students
Tuition $60,550**
Room 11,002
Board 7,030
Orientation Fee 334
Activity Fee 320
Comprehensive Fee 480
Mandatory Health Fee 756
Total Direct Costs: $80,472

2022-23 Indirect Costs
Estimated
Undergraduate
Domestic Students
Personal $1,080
Books 700
Transportation 600
Total ESTIMATED Indirect Costs: $2,380
============================================
What's the annual average state and federal income tax rate on 83 grand ?
Is it fairly safe to say that the before-taxes gross required is over $100K ?

You are an amazing talent !!!

[UncleBeer]

There was an essay years ago, characterizing the relationship in an orchestra as 'patriarchal', where the conductor is the 'master', and the musicians merely 'players'. They have almost no control over what/how they're to play, which supposedly leads to dissatisfaction in their jobs.

A steady gig's a wonderful thing, but after decades as an orchestral tubaist, I can attest that there's some truth to this. Here's a snippet; the entire essay is in the link above.

Orchestras are fundamentally patriarchal. Underlying the behavior of
conductors and musicians in the orchestra is the myth of the conductor as
omniscient father (“maestro,” “maître”) and the musicians as children (“players”)
who know nothing and require uninterrupted teaching and supervision. As Robert
Sapolsky (1994) wrote of the Fellini movie, The Orchestra Rehearsal, “When Fellini
needed a metaphor for the anarchic overthrow of the patriarchy, he came up
with the notion of an orchestra rebelling against its conductor.” (Some might
suggest that the patriarchal myth also accounts for the overwhelming dominance
of the podium by male practitioners, not to mention the very existence of the
baton.)

To demonstrate this myth, let us deconstruct a typical moment in an orchestra
rehearsal. The conductor is waving his arms around in a manner that would get
him arrested were he to do it on the street, and the musicians are not only not
laughing, they are doing their level best to decipher those motions, coordinate
their actions to realize the music on their stands, and incidentally give the
conductor the gratifying sensation of total control.

What happens when a member of the orchestra asks the conductor a question
is even more revealing. (Virtually every communication from a musician to a
conductor in a rehearsal is phrased as a question, even when it is really a
statement of fact or belief.) One of the authors once heard the principal clarinetist
of a major American orchestra ask the conductor whether he wanted the notes
with dots over them “short, or like the brass were playing them?” This rather
complex statement masquerading as a question conveyed both the musician’s
lack of respect for the brass players in question and scorn for the conductor’s
failure to notice the problem. But to fit the myth of the omniscient conductor,
the comment had to be phrased as a question, for how could a musician possibly
inform an omniscient being? The myth dictates that a musician can only tap
into that well of knowledge, not add to it.

Questions from musicians to conductors must be respectfully phrased and,
ideally, prefaced with the honorific “Maestro.” (This title may be dropped if the
conductor is sufficiently young or doesn’t speak with an accent.) Such questions
must not explicitly challenge the conductor’s interpretation of the music or
conducting and rehearsal technique in any way.

This arrangement makes matters awkward for the orchestral musician who
desires to improve the quality of the orchestral product. The musician must not
challenge the conductor’s tempi or interpretation; he or she cannot even suggest
that there might be a pitch or ensemble problem, much less how the conductor
might fix it. Questions are therefore limited to issues of whether the parts agree
with the score or how the conductor would like a certain passage bowed. Even
the latter has risks, however, as it implies that the conductor didn’t see how it
was bowed the first time; certainly no self-respecting omniscient being could
have missed something as elementary as whether a passage started up-bow or
down-bow.

In fact, the myth makes virtually all communication from musician to
conductor impossible. (In one major American orchestra, musicians are
discouraged from addressing the music director until he addresses them first.
Matters are arranged so that the music director never encounters musicians
except on the podium or in private meetings which he calls.) This is not to say
such communications don’t happen, of course, but the farther they venture
from simple inquiry, the more uncomfortable they are likely to make orchestra
members and the more angry the conductor. Challenging the conductor’s
omniscience is, quite literally, taboo.

[russiantuba]

Ironic that so many Institutions of Higher Learning pat themselves on the back for recently starting to offer "Business of Music" type courses. Which of course bear no resemblance whatsoever to the world of professional music. Go figure.

They do represent the world of professional music, 30 years ago and through a narrow lens. I learn more from small snippets of what teachers have mentioned in lessons (I do the same to students) and when here are tough decisions or questions, I rely on their experience. I mean, they are all successful in the business!

[UncleBeer]

Ironic that so many Institutions of Higher Learning pat themselves on the back for recently starting to offer "Business of Music" type courses. Which of course bear no resemblance whatsoever to the world of professional music. Go figure.

They do represent the world of professional music, 30 years ago and through a narrow lens.

Not in my experience of upper tier gigs. I think perhaps they're relaying stories of their time in the Thunder Bay Sinfonietta.

[bloke]

One of the first music business degrees was offered at Memphis State University (before it became the “University of”…back when there were five big bands, and the top band were all busy professional players, composers, and arrangers…with Tom Ferguson – the pianist on that monumental Matteson/Phillips LP - as their band leader.

I can’t remember the lawyers name, but he was a prominent national lawyer who represented the musicians union, locals, and individual entertainers.
A whole bunch of the stuff that he taught him some of those classes has completely gone by the wayside since.
Somehow – even at age 20 – I knew that a whole bunch of that stuff that he was talking about was going to disappear, and soon become moot.

[TheDoctor]

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - Hunter S Thompson misquote


I suppose there's reason this misquote keeps making rounds on the internet, but those reasons are over my head, as I only really know an outsider's view of the professional industry.

[Tubeast]

Way back when I considered myself to be more successful in tuba lessons than studying mechanical engineering, I joined a quintet that featured two music students (music education and music perforformance), and a high school student who might have made it as a pro trumpet player but chose to enter science when his time came.
All three of these were deeply immersed in the local freelance ecosystem.

For a brief period, I considered changing my majors from engineering to music.
It took just TWO things to make up my mind and decide to keep music as a hobby:

- an honest talk with my tuba teacher about my chances, having started tuba at 19, competing against people in my age group with 10 years of pro-grade preparation under their belt.
- listening to the soon-to-be pro musicians talk about gossip from their world (who "won" what position, who messed up what performance, whose students will be hired where...)

I figured I loved music too much to enter a world of resentfulness, rivalry, and gloating spitefulness.

[kingrob76]

My son, a freshman in college who applied to all his schools to study Music Education (Viola) had a MUCH different experience with his pre-college time than I did in the mid 1980's.

First, schools have refined their marketing message and find a way to make each student feel recruited now, whereas for me it was like "you want to major in music? ok, go to that building and find the music office and ask what classes you need to take, I guess." My school didn't care beans about getting students in the door and it showed - I was the only undergrad tuba major at a 4-year University with 35,000 students for all but 1 semester of my first 4 years. My kid was treated like an athlete who could help a program win games and ended up being one of 3 viola majors admitted to his studio (which had something like 15 students). But other majors took on a recruiting-type tone as well. College is competitive, more people every year and the same number of seats. Before deciding on a school my son had taken a lesson with the professor AND sat in on an orchestra rehearsal (as a section player) with most of his considered schools.

Second, college is way more expensive, but there is a LOT more offered. I was downright envious of the facilities I saw on tours and at orientation - and these were all public schools with large enrollments. The amount of effort universities are putting out to help students be successful - if they choose to be - simply blew me away. My school, administratively, offered classes and office hours for professors. Most profs seemed AWOL when it came to those hours in my recollection. Schools today invest more and are more interested in their students. The only thing that struck me as college-like were the dorms which are largely the same as they ever were. College is big business now in most cases, and is managed as such. That's not a bad thing.

Now in the case of MY son, he decided - as move-in day was just wrapping up - that his choice of school AND major were wrong for him. After a lengthy discussion we moved him back out and within 24 hours he was enrolled at community college in a 5-year program that transfers to a very good 4-year school and completes with an accelerated Masters Degree in Computational Data Science. For HIM, this is the right path and I'm glad he figured it out when he did.

I will also add that MOST Music Ed grads - at several schools - seemed happy with their choices and direction. One state school touted a stat where every MuED graduate from the past 9 years was not only able to find work immediately out of school but that over 90% of their grads (based on survey results) were still in their original field with results going back over 20 years. I think these results vary regionally as much as anything else, I wouldn't expect these kind of stats in other parts of the country.

[bloke]

I believe it’s this way across the country:

A couple of things that I’ve noticed about the school I attended are that the facilities have been upgraded to resemble palaces and super-upscale shopping malls, (completely allowing for inflation) the tuition is about twenty times as expensive as it used to be (yet – I understand – that a very large percentage of the instructors come and go with entry-level salaries or even just a handful of thousands of dollars each year), and there is a deep commitment to brainwashing students of all disciplines with mountains of “embrace this, or hit the road” socio-political nonsense.

[Mary Ann]

There was an essay years ago, characterizing the relationship in an orchestra as 'patriarchal', where the conductor is the 'master', and the musicians merely 'players'. They have almost no control over what/how they're to play,

I used to tell people who were all gaga about how "artistic" being a symphony musician was, that it really was more like being in the military: you do what you're told, when you're told, how you're told. Nobody except the players gets it. I liked engineering much better --- I was in a situation where I basically designed my own job; meaning, I figured out what needed to be done, designed it and did it, AND it was a service to the inhabitants of the city the utility serves. So WAY better than being a union musician, which damn near ruined music for me; I had to switch to brass just to get the enjoyment back, become an "amateur."

I also prefer chamber music, because there is no dictator, and I'll still choose that over the big group format, given the option.