basstrombasso

[York-aholic]

This horn is practically done!

[bloke]

This horn is practically done!

[bloke]

… I did find an alternate source for .562 inch bore rotors (new, and not lapped in) at an affordable price (sadly, left over from shuttered American manufacturing), if these two California F E Olds rotors end up not being satisfactory.

[bloke]

[1] Since projects require so many hours (whether someone goes right through them step-by-step, or whether someone does a whole bunch of redo's), I don't like to spend any sort of significant money on them. If I'm going to spend $XXXX type of dough on parts (or acquiring the instruments torn apart to make the "project" instrument) there may (??) already be something manufactured that I could just BUY (you know...shiny, ready-to-play, with a case and a brochure, etc.) rather than build. That having been said, there probably isn't a place that makes (at least not quite) this, so...

[2] As I've stated before, I really don't enjoy assembling pre-manufactured parts into "assemblies". To me, that's tedium, boredom, and too reminiscent of some sort of factory job. (I always think of those women in those factories in Elkhart - decades ago - who stamped out woodwind key blanks day-in-and-day out...and with a chain hooked to their wrist - just in case they didn't move it out of the way on their own. ) What I do enjoy is seeing if I can "fix" a close-tolerance mechanism that - otherwise - would need to be replaced ($XXX to $XXXX) and WITHOUT totally "remanufacturing" it...and just (semi-lost art?) "repairing" it. ...so (though I was sort-of dreading this), it's also sort-of "up my alley".

I don't have ANY time - right now - to screw around with this thing, YET - if I put it off TOO long - I'll be using the F cimbasso - next season - to cover bass trombone parts in the standard rep. (incl. Dvorak 7, which I would MUCH prefer to play (assuming the project is successful) on THIS thing.

The most WORRISOME thing about this project (per a typical school-owned F-attachment tenor-or-bass trombone) was cracks in the friggin rotor knuckle - leading to the playing slide receiver. (There's ONE currently-manufactured Yamaha bass trombone that has a rotor assembly which MIGHT ?? interchange with this one, but - being Yamaha - the price of that rotor assembly would be confiscatory. Otherwise (and I have some decent 15mm bore rotor assemblies, but with more traditional/narrower knuckle patterns) I would have to reconfig' the F-attachment wrap...and I just don't want to do that.

...so today (to avoid difficult-to-remove-later-because-it-would-be burned lacquer), I went ahead - today - and stripped the lacquer from this bell section (and btw...I traded this bell section for a handful of valve caps that this thing's former own wanted, and which were no use to me), took the playing slide receiver off (DAMN, did Yamaha figure out a STUPID way to put all that together - as you'll see in the pictures, below), and repaired the multi-cracked rotor knuckle...yet WITHOUT ruining the rotor casing (otherwise requiring a NOT desired "remanufacture" gig).

The short version of the story is that I was successful. You'll see some extra silver solder mounded up on that knuckle, but (as it's not noticeable to others) I'm LEAVING it there for strength.

stupid:
Notice how friggin' LONG the stupid knuckle is, how it ends up being a "double-layer" thing (which fits - inside-outside - as closely as a tuning slide), and how it could have EASILY all been hopelessly FUBARed EITHER in the disassembly OR in the repair of it. (Also, just imagine how dicey it was to get those parts APART - without tearing everything up.)

once I get around to rockin' and rollin' with this thing:
My plan is to get this bell section ALL slicked out AND get the (1950's dual-bore F. E. OLDS tuning-in-the-slide) bass trombone playing slide (which I'm going to compatible-ize to this Yamaha bell section) ALL slicked out, and THEN (after all of that) work on the 4+2 valveset.

The video is to show that the rotor STILL spins, and that I didn't ruin the casing...
Oh yeah, the blow-by is minimal...pretty damn good for a fifty-year-old school-owned/badly-abused bass trombone.

...and you've seen these: Besides the cracks, it was also all creased.






video, demonstrating that the rotor casing wasn't ruined:
https://i.imgur.com/ooKQqbp.mp4

[bloke]

As seen early in this thread, I have two 1950’s smallish California Olds bass trombone bell sections, which I will probably cannibalize for this project. They sound nasal and play out of tune (probably, Olds’ first outing with bass trombones…??), and are more reminiscent (were they even made originally at the correct length) of in-between sized past-manufactured instruments, such as the rarely-seen King 5B - so these Olds bass trombone bell sections are only good for parts.
I believe – besides the rotors and the F attachment tubing, I’m also going to harvest an Olds playing slide receiver and main bell brace assembly from one of them, because they are more durable than the Yamaha parts. as well as having been fabricated of nickel silver (rather than 1970’s scrap brass - bought from the United States).
To summarize:
Structurally, those funky “strrrong-like-boooull” Olds bass trombones were superior, but - acoustically - Yamaha (simply by copying Conn interior dimensions) was superior.

[bone-a-phone]

Sometimes people will put a brace across the gap between the knuckles to take some of the stress off that area. This usually happens with trombones that have been marched and snapped to position a bit too energetically. Life as a cimbasso-shaped instrument might put some extra or unintended stress on that area, so a brace/strap/stiffener across the knuckles might not be a bad idea, especially if there is some existing damage.

[bloke]

I've done that a couple of times - over the years (after being exasperated with schools/instruments whereby the re-FUBAR'ed them - after having been repaired...and then, they have subsequently come back re-re-FUBAR'ed, and with the auxiliary brace busted off.

After the cracks were filled (and they took the silver brazing wire remarkably well - which isn't always the case) I layered on several more thousandths of an inch of brazing material over the knuckle.
Silver brazing material is a bit like (so called) "nickel silver", in that it is mostly brass (a good bit copper with some zinc) mixed in with some (rather than nickel) silver. Though the alloys of this vary, copper is usually more than half of it, and zinc and silver (very roughly) being in-the-same-ball-park percentages of contributing metals in an alloy. It's not as strong as brass, but it REALLY bonds to brass (which is why it is used to build brace assemblies) and layering several thousandths of an inch of it over sheet brass or brass tubing is going to bolster the sheet brass or brass tubing considerably.

I respect the idea of the extra brace, but would prefer to avoid the look of it.

me...??
I'll probably be dead in ten years.
maybe...??
I can avoid re-damaging it for that long.

[bloke]

The previously (I would assume) school-FUBAR'ed bell is now shaped like a bass trombone bell, again.
I left some oil on some surfaces, which hint out how the tools function that are utilized which un-FUBAR bells.
(Also, I didn't want to go into the buffing room - as I took a shower a few hours ago, because I had to drive into town to ship a tuba to Michigan.)

The previously-jacked-and-salted-with-dents F-attachment is now dent-free, free of solder joint leaks, square, and the gooseneck shoots straight out - 90 degrees from all sides - from the rotor body.









Ideally, I would like to get this ancient Yamaha bell section restored, the REALLY-ancient F. E. Olds playing slide (duo bore: .554" - .564", tuning-in-slide) restored, and the two mated to each other, before I set this aside and get back to fixin' school horns.
AT LEAST, I'll feel like there might be some semblance of a CHANCE of building the 4+2 valveset for it in time to learn to play it and perform Dvorak 7, next fall.

[bloke]

I’ve polished the bell, found the little imperfections, removed them, also cleaned up the solder joints on the F-attachment, and got a really good start on precision aligning and bracing up the F attachment tuning slide, as well as a really good job of removing dents from the F-attachment tuning slide bow.
Pictures would not be interesting, in my judgment. I had to have a tooth pulled today which – at least – will solve a chronic problem, as it was finally discovered that the tooth was cracked right down the middle. I don’t feel terrible, but I don’t feel great, and in spite of that I had to unload a whole bunch of instruments from the big van, catalog them, and then hand pull the 12 foot enclosed trailer uphill to the parking area - from out of the grass, because it has been raining so much that if I tried to back up and hook onto it, the van would’ve gotten stuck in the mud.
(repair pick-ups and deliveries at six Mississippi schools, tomorrow… ‘ glad for the work, ‘ not quite feeling up to the odyssey)

One really cool thing about this bell is that this Yamaha instrument dates back to the era when they painted their name/insignia on their instruments with reddish-brown paint over the lacquer, so it no longer says “Yamaha“ on it. (This model of bass trombone was their second - YBL-322 - and perhaps their best, because it sounds like a Conn 72H, but I’m not a fan of Yamaha in general.)

In summary: no pictures

[bloke]

Many solder joints on this bell section were heated and the tubes were pushed down into each other (perhaps) a 32nd to a 16th of an inch too far (??)

I've been working very hard to put things back as they were originally, as well as to line up slide tubes as-good-or-better-than than were originally. I just laid the bell section together tonight, just to see how it might end up appearing. I can't say that it looks "wrong", but (I might be staring at it too closely) it looks a little bit odd to me. One thing I'm noticing is that the side of the F attachment next to the bell isn't following it in parallel, and then - I remind myself that the F-attachment is squared off, and the bell is a cone.

It would be nice to have a "reference" bell section (to which I could refer), but - however this one ends up "looking", it's going to go back together and function just fine.

my pulled tooth...??
no pain medicine yesterday nor today.
Even though (obviously) there's some healing to do, at least there's no longer tooth in my head that feels as though it was taken out of some dead man's head and stuck into mine. I'm thinking that I'm going to find something to fix up and sell, so I can use the revenue to buy a couple of tooth implants. The prospect of a "bridge" (as there are now too cracked teeth in a row, which have been pulled from that side) seems horrific.

Mrs. bloke and I left out this morning at 9 with the full-size van and 12' trailer. We stopped at 6 schools, both ended up being jam-packed full, and everything needs to be back in those schools hands before the end of July (and there's already a great deal of stuff here, more schools to visit, and a major university to visit.

I believe I'm setting this project aside, for a while.
I just looked at the schedule, and Dvorak 7 (unlike what I thought) doesn't occur until March.

[bloke]

' smiles, today...

I decided to look through "that place's" catalog, and - sure enough - they had quite a few of the missing parts to this (ancient) Yamaha bass trombone bell section - listed under (guess what...??) THIS MODEL of bass trombone. (duh)

Everything you see in these three pictures (everything nickel colored) was in stock (along with a few more parts - not shown in the pictures.

The total bill with postage was about $70. I was afraid I was going to have to friggin' MACHINE a rotor cap, ADAPT stop arm, RIG a thumb lever...SOMETHING-OR-OTHER a cork plate, etc., etc...

nope, nope, nope, and NOPE !!!!!







(I'm not "getting on with" this project, right now...' too much mowing to do, and house-staining to finish before it gets too cool for it to adhere to the logs properly.)

[bloke]

The F-attachment will only be used if and when I put down the 4+2 valveset and install the auxiliary playing slide… but the lever and it’s spring need to be in place to keep the valve in the open position.

[York-aholic]

Excellent news on the parts being available!

[bloke]

THIS:

[bloke]

notice:

- no dual linkages
- detachable only at the bell connector
- no pillow blocks (unless someone shows me what a "pillow block" is - and - maybe - I find some in my junk)
- The total budget is "one decent gig's paycheck":
>> two ancient F. E. Olds (sorta) bass trombones (gleaning rotors and rotor circuit tubing) $200 for the pair
>> Yamaha bass trombone bell section (traded for some King euphonium valve caps - found in a drawer)
>> playing slide (was part of one of the Olds bass trombones)
>> piston valveset (eBay treasure: $150)
>> misc Conn-Selmer tuning slide tubing (.562" bore inside/outside) and slide bows ($70)
>> parts recently received from Wisconsin ($70)
>> bass trombone hard case for the bell section and playing slide (donated by a friend)
>> case for the valve section (probably, some odd-shaped thrift-store-found case for something - TBA)

thus: This is will be a student/intermediate (aka "step-up") basstrombasso - probably appropriate for 7th - 9th graders.

[arpthark]

Sorry, but the local middle school band directors in my district are only interested in Yamaha basstrombassos.

[bloke]

Sorry, but the local middle school band directors in my district are only interested in Yamaha basstrombassos.

Someone, here, reads too much of my sh!t.

but yes.. it will feature minimal engraving, vs. "professional" or "custom" engraving.
(I believe I can see where someone - years ago - scratched "BUTT" into the bell flare...so that counts, yes?)

Actually, I believe I can mass-market this one-off instrument to middle schools, because - well - its amplifying portion is this:

a YBL-322


bloke "I wonder how many thousands of times I might be able to sell this ONE instrument? Where's Bernie Madoff - or the Social Security Administration - when I need them...??"

[arpthark]

Sorry, but the local middle school band directors in my district are only interested in Yamaha basstrombassos.

Someone, here, reads too much of my sh!t.

but yes.. it will feature minimal engraving, vs. "professional" or "custom" engraving.
(I believe I can see where someone - years ago - scratched "BUTT" into the bell flare...so that counts, yes?)

Actually, I believe I can mass-market this one-off instrument to middle schools, because - well - its amplifying portion is this:

a YBL-322


bloke "I wonder how many thousands of times I might be able to sell this ONE instrument? Where's Bernie Madoff - or the Social Security Administration - when I need them...??"

I read all the sh!t.

You just happen to write a lot of it!

But for real, I love watching these projects unfold, however so slowly they may be. I'm looking forward to seeing this one getting completed.

[Bob Kolada]

Sorry, but the local middle school band directors in my district are only interested in Yamaha basstrombassos.

Someone, here, reads too much of my sh!t.

but yes.. it will feature minimal engraving, vs. "professional" or "custom" engraving.
(I believe I can see where someone - years ago - scratched "BUTT" into the bell flare...so that counts, yes?)

Actually, I believe I can mass-market this one-off instrument to middle schools, because - well - its amplifying portion is this:

a YBL-322


bloke "I wonder how many thousands of times I might be able to sell this ONE instrument? Where's Bernie Madoff - or the Social Security Administration - when I need them...??"

Who was that company that made a contrabass Bb cimbasso several years ago and adamantly said 'NO! it's not a cimbasso, it's a valve trombone for high school jazz bands!'?

[bloke]

I’ll probably have to set it aside again, but I’ve submitted some fairly large repair quotes to a couple of schools (waiting for a purchase orders), I have work to do here - but it’s not pressing, so today I’m seeing about cleaning up my room (now that I’ve replaced the water heater and the faucet out there - both which were trash) a little bit more and also dabbling with the idea of getting this bell section completed and maybe even the playing slide overhauled, so at least I have a complete/playable/nothing-wrong-with-it (completely functional, aligned, and dent-free) bass trombone.
Once I have that, it can serve as my base instrument (yes: b-a-s-e) to/with which I can add the wild 4+2 valveset.
If I actually get a functional bass trombone put together, I might take it this weekend for a Mississippi “Freeway Philharmonic” concert, for the following week for a Tennessee “Freeway Philharmonic” concert, and see what those bass trombonists think of the basic instrument.

As I am using a 1950s tuning-in-the-slide dual-bore (.554” - .564”) California Olds playing slide, I’ll need to put a vintage Olds playing slide receiver and lock nut on the Yamaha bell section. Due to the goofy Yamaha design, that’s going to take just a little bit of doing, but not too bad.

Previous “stick-‘em-together” first position play tests were promising.

In summary, I like cheese, so
Please give generously to the blokecheese Christmas Fund…or - alternately - make offerings to the tuning gods, so that (maybe…??) I won’t need to put a blankety-blank main tuning slide trigger on this contraption.

(I know you are only reading this crap because you don’t want to go out and rake your leaves.)