basstrombasso

[arpthark]

(I know you are only reading this crap because you don’t want to go out and rake your leaves.)

I feel personally attacked.

[bloke]

OK...I'm feeling a LITTLE bit more encouraged, because I actually HAVE a viable instrument (a gig-ready bass trombone, with a really GOOD sound and really GOOD tuning) for which I can branch off and build a "cimbasso-style" 4+2 vertical valveset.

This was about four hours (not horrible, and everything went the way it should) of work.

I felt guilty about doing THIS (rather than customer work), but - well... - Mrs. bloke sold a semi-fancy clarinet today (a new wood JP - a great intermediate-Buffet-like instrument) to some happy folks, so SOME money DID flow in.

We lost yet another dog, yesterday (an 11-1/2 year-old female Doberman FULL of life, was still running her tail off - out in the pasture every day, living in the "bonus round" for a Doberman)...massive heart attack/died instantly...and this kept my mind off of that.

Anyway, this Yamaha (Conn 72H knock-off) YBL-322 bell section (produced in the later-mid-1980's) sounds WONDERFUL, and this duo-bore (.554" - 564" tuning-in-slide California-made 1950's F. E. Olds slide feels wonderful - as far as air/resistance is concerned).

Tomorrow (tonight...??), I'll "blueprint and balance" this playing slide. Right now, it deserves a grade of "B".

It's interesting how (already discovered) that when I tune the bell section tuning slide vs. the playing slide tuning slide I can raise/lower different slightly out-of-tune partials.

Overall, the tuning is great with this bell section (which is what I'm REALLY going to need - ie. "good tuning characteristics", when I play this thing with six valves).

I'm not going to admit how absurdly little (even including the valve section stuff) I have invested in this project.
Of course, this bell section (before being blokerized) previously resembled something ready to go into a box of scrap, the rotor casing (which I repaired, rather than replaced) was trashed (I'd wager your valve is noisier than this one ), and - well... - the tricky (cutting/shrinking/expanding/quasi-machining/silver-soldering) stuff that I had to do to get this bell section ready to receive a 1950's vintage Olds slide consumed a considerable proportion of the time. Also, me being determined that everything would be aligned as good as new (or maybe slightly better - and even though tuning slides had been distressed) ate up a good bit of time as well. I had already (months ago) made the (really messed up) bell look nice.

(I haven't cleaned up any of the solder joints, and nor have a cleaned up the silver brazing required on the hybrid playing slide receiver assembly.)

HA !!! bLOKE SUDDENLY OWNS A REALLY GOOD BASS TROMBONE !!!!!

[arpthark]

Nice!

The spooky Goosebumps bedspread background makes it even better for the season.

Sorry about your pup. My brother in law has an 11 year old Dobie too. She's living her best life right now -- "bonus round" is very apt. Sounds like yours was enjoying life to the fullest, not infirm/medicated/in pain... no better way to go.

[York-aholic]

Nice horn (except for having to move a slide in and out).

I too will add my condolences for your dog. They bring such joy and comfort but with their shorter than us life span, it sure is tough to lose them. I'm sorry.

[bloke]

OK...
I just went out, took the slide all apart, put each individual tube on the lathe, straightened them, and then put it all back together on the granite stone with risers.

These tuning-in-slide slides are a bit trickier to "overhaul" (I hate that word), but not too much trickier.

The slide glides really nicely now, but makes scratchy noises, because previous players (whomever...) had doinked the ends of the inside tubes. I'll address those places (and subtly cone in the ends of those tubes) tomorrow.

I'm REALLY tickled to own this, and am encouraged (though I don't have time to do so right now) to push onward with the valveset portion of the project. What I REALLY like is that it sounds/blows (even with the dual-bore playing slide) like a REALLY good Elkhart-vintage Conn...and I have an old Warburton-made "Canadian Brass" bass trombone mouthpiece (which I've sort of ignored over the decades, but tried it out - along with other bass trombone mouthpieces I own) which really seems to "like" this bass trombone. The mouthpiece (unlike most bass trombone mouthpieces) is somewhat funnel-shaped inside the cup, and the rim is thin.

I won't have tons of time to build that, so I'm going to work really hard to "built it in my head" precisely how it's going to need to line up with me (in playing position), because I don't have time to "try" crap over-and-over.

yeah...That's my "emergency" (own better ones) tuba mute...I was just experimenting with it with someone's else tubas.
also ("back there") - yup - that's an old eBay-bought drum machine. People want a bunch of dough for those things. The INTERNAL ("permanent/memory") battery was toast. I watched a YouTube video and replaced it. It's much more fun to play Meistersinger as a rumba than to boring beeps.

Elsa: She was a great dog. All dogs go to heaven. Rascal (nearly as old) was her lifelong buddy. Elsa could outrun Rascal, and Rascal could outmaneuver Elsa. (They were funny to watch.) We recently lost an older female Pyrénées (guard dog) as well. The deceased Pyrénées mate (a male Pyrénées) could use a buddy, and Rascal could use a buddy. Mrs. bloke was concerned that Rascal would chase the livestock. I told her that he would not. I was correct...so the male Pyrénées now has Rascal as his new buddy (right up in the front pasture)...so we now see much more of Rascal, every day. He's doing a bunch of tail-wagging.
The idea is to outlive all of our pets and animals, so that they won't have to be re-homed.

[bloke]

I found an ancient leak underneath the water key nipple, so the overall pitch stability is now better and the playing is a bit stronger.

I dressed the ends of the inside playing slide tubes, so now the playing slide action is much more quiet.

I also swapped out the brace between the F attachment and the bell with one that is much more spartan in styling - since the styling of the bell section is very simple. I had originally imagined a little Yamaha X-style brace machined out of a solid piece of brass, and actually stumbled across just such a brace this morning.

I continue to be giddy. The first position tuning is remarkably good across the partials, and the sound – again – is just what I’m looking for, even though I’m a mere doubler who - over my lifetime - probably has only spent a couple of hundred hours (vs. “countless thousands”) playing bass trombones.
The low range response is very nice, and the sound is very nice, rather than the terse/blatty typical new era bass trombone low range sound.

timing:
All of those repairs from those two schools were approved today, and/but I have an out-of-town “Freeway Philharmonic” thing in Mississippi, this weekend. That having been said, I calculated the hotel allowance versus nine hours of driving back-and-forth for each rehearsal and the performance. I’ll come out considerably ahead on money, and – since I only play on one short piece – I’ll gain tons of hours of productivity in the shop.

Of course, I’ll clean up the goop later:

10694F87-6386-41F3-A3D7-AE9041CDE9B7.jpeg (37.01 KiB) Viewed 1757 times

[bloke]

OK...I did some quickie buffing (looks MUCH better, but nowhere near lacquer-ready), and (digging around in the barn) found the original F. E. Olds & Son CASE for the (to be cannibalized) 1967 dual-bore bass trombone.

The 1960's Olds case is quite similar to a c. 1980's Vincent Bach case (brown box)...and (even better) the 9-1/2" Yamaha bass trombone bell section "just" fits inside. I cleaned/glued it up, and (at least - until I'm also toting a 4+2 valveset with this thing) I've got something in which to store/carry this (for now, only a) bass trombone.

I recall offering someone $250 for an Elkhart (not as revered as today...just existential) Conn 72H - back in 1980, which is the equivalent of around $1000 or $1100, today (with inflation calculators only claiming $900, but we know better). They considered the offer for a week or so, and then turned me down. A 42-year delay (for something extremely similar) is quite a wait, but - well... - I like (what I paid for) this much better.

bloke "the junk man"

[bone-a-phone]

The usual notes to look out for on trombone are mostly higher partials. D above the staff is slightly flat. F above the staff generally has to be pulled out 1-1.5". Ab above that is not usually playable in 1st position. Trigger 2nd space C usually has to be played about 3/4 inch out. Trigger F below the staff is usually tuned against the bumpers (so the C above it isn't too far out).

Most post-intermediate players tune Bb off the bumpers slightly. How far off the bumpers varies. Some people claim to just push the tuning slide in all the way and tune everything on the fly. I don't buy that. I think you play in tune by muscle memory first, and then second by ear. If you have to use your ear, you start your notes out of tune. I'm a fan of setting your instrument up right, and you could play in tune even if you can't hear yourself. Which happens when you sit in front of a row of trumpets.

I've never played a trombone that was truly straight up and down in tune in all partials.

[bloke]

All I have to say is that these six first position pitches are pretty remarkably in tune with each other, and I’m making certain that I’m not favoring them. The fundamental B-flat is a bit high - but it’s probably high because I’m not immediately relaxing my embouchure enough when I’m initially playing that pitch, because it’s very easy to bring it down to where it belongs.
Fifth partial D is certainly not flatter than the B-flat, and sixth partial F is only negligibly sharp, if any. Tenth partial D – way up there… Well, it is what it is.
This stuff is mostly moot, because I’m going to be playing this instrument with valves, eventually.

Make no mistake:
I appreciate the reports on typical tendencies very much, and I have monkeyed around with quite a few bass trombones – including those that I’ve sold and those that I’ve repaired.

[matt g]

Severe tangent:

Does Conn still put the slide stop springs in the 88H slide?

[bloke]

I just repaired a few of those that are brand spanking new, and I’m thinking not.

[matt g]

I just repaired a few of those that are brand spanking new, and I’m thinking not.

That’s a shame…

It was a clever idea. Tune the majority of the open bugle to being in tune against the bottom of the springs, but then you have some wiggle room to pull in with stuff like D above the staff and playing C above high Bb in first position.

[bloke]

yes… But they would tend to buzz

[bone-a-phone]

Severe tangent:

Does Conn still put the slide stop springs in the 88H slide?

Funny story. My first lesson with John Swallow at New England Conservatory (1984 if that matters), he asked for my horn (Elkhart 88h), took out a paper clip and straightened it with a little hook on the end, and proceeded to rip the springs out of my horn. "Those things drive me crazy" he said. They made this little click every time you came back to 1st position. I later wrapped some cotton string around the tubes and shoved it up in the barrels with my slide just to have some cushion between the slide and my teeth. I was actually happier without them.

[bloke]

There’s a much less risky way of removing them, which is to take a brand new piece of typing paper, roll it around the slide tube at a 45° angle tightly, rotate the end of the typing paper towards the spring - up under the spring, then twist the paper back the other way - which grabs the spring, and then pull the spring straight out which will be on top of the paper.

Trumpet top cap donut felts are the best things for playing slide bumpers… More or fewer of them, depending on how thick.

[Finetales]

Lots of trombonists really dislike the springs in old Conns, but I like them. I can tune normally, and then pull in from 1st if I need a note to be slightly higher. It also saves my lips if I accidentally pull the slide in too fast (though that thankfully doesn't happen often).

[bloke]

Yes, there are people who like the springs.

With this particular Franken-bass trombone,
The Yamaha bell section and dual bore Olds slide offer crazy good first position intonation.

I guess if The D or the lower F were flat - or something, I would find some of those springs.
With an F attachment, I guess the flattest pitch (usually – with a large bore F-attachment tenor or bass trombone) is going to be the first position F-attachment C, but I’m thinking that the springs don’t offer enough tuning range to get that C up to pitch.

Again, I don’t plan to use the slide very often, and the main thing that is encouraging to me about first position intonation lining up so well is that maybe (??) this instrument will behave nearly as well with a set of six valves on it.

[matt g]

I had an old YBL-322 and then the Yamaha dependent rotor bass after that. I’m pretty sure they both had the same bell mandrel and taper.

Both had good pitch, in-line with what you’re experiencing. The dependent rotor bass had way better pitch than the 50B3O I would occasionally borrow.

[bloke]

I won’t berate them - because I’m not a bass trombonist, but I don’t hear a lot of complementary things about Bach bass trombones – including from some of those who own them.

When I was looking for a bell section, I wasn’t particularly looking for anything specific.
That having been said, I knew that I wasn’t looking for the 9 inch Olds bells that I have, I sort of knew that I really didn’t want a Bach bell, and - even though, in the back of my mind, I mostly wanted a vintage Conn bell, I disliked the idea of wasting a perfectly good Conn vintage bass trombone on myself, when some really good bass trombone player (who would truly appreciate it and play it better than I would) could own and play it.

I suppose I would’ve been happy with a King bass trombone bell or a Holton bass trombone bell…probably even an old red 10-inch Reynolds bass trombone bell…
…but swapping some parts for this Conn knockoff seemed like wonderful luck, as well as being “the perfect thing”…ie. not wasting a real vintage Conn on myself.

[bone-a-phone]

I won’t berate them - because I’m not a bass trombonist, but I don’t hear a lot of complementary things about Bach bass trombones – including from some of those who own them.

When I was looking for a bell section, I wasn’t particularly looking for anything specific.
That having been said, I knew that I wasn’t looking for the 9 inch Olds bells that I have, I sort of knew that I really didn’t want a Bach bell, and - even though, in the back of my mind, I mostly wanted a vintage Conn bell, I disliked the idea of wasting a perfectly good Conn vintage bass trombone on myself, when some really good bass trombone player (who would truly appreciate it and play it better than I would) could own and play it.

I suppose I would’ve been happy with a King bass trombone bell or a Holton bass trombone bell…probably even an old red 10-inch Reynolds bass trombone bell…
…but swapping some parts for this Conn knockoff seemed like wonderful luck, as well as being “the perfect thing”…ie. not wasting a real vintage Conn on myself.

Bach 50bx was the defacto pro horn for a long time after Conn stopped making 62h and before Edwards got rolling, so people think it makes them look smart to talk smack about Bach bass bones (unless it says Mount Vernon or New York on them, then they are holy relics for some reason). Bachs can be variable in quality. One of the best basses I've played was a Bach dependent. But if you're just using components, I think the variability was in the assembly, not in the piece parts.

Olds are very under rated. I put together a frankenbone Olds bass (I think using the same bell that you have) that was great for a certain type of playing. Reynolds tend to fall into a category with Olds, although Olds never made a 10" bell. Reynolds made some very playable bass bones - NY Phil's Ostrander was one of the first to play a Reynolds bass.

I would not hesitate to take apart a 72h. There are a lot of them out there, especially ones that need rescuing. And single valve basses are very unfashionable with most folks right now.

There is nothing at all wrong with a 6b or 7b or 8b King. Nothing at all. Was it Cleveland or Cincinnati that used all King bones for a while. Benge 290 is also a perfectly good instrument. I put a King 5B bell on a double valve tenor once to give it a little oomph. And a 6b valveset on that Olds S20 I frankened.

You have to be careful about Holtons. There are some holtons that people hoard, and some that no one cares about. !69, 185, and even 180 to some extent certain people hold in high reverence. But 181, 183 are valued as recycling materials. Well, some people like 181s, but they shouldn't. I've got a 159 that I'm putting a plugin valve on to use as a tweener.

Nobody gets sentimental about Yamaha, so that's a safe project bell, but also any bell you can find that needs rescued, there's no shame in that. Especially since you can do the work.

"One man's trash is another man's treasure".

I'm most interested in the valve set you're going to use for this, so why don't you just go ahead and get that part of the project started?