Question about slide lubrication

[DonO.]

The paperwork that came with my King 2341 stated that it had already been lubricated with synthetics and advised me to stick with that. So since I’ve owned it I have used Bach synthetic oil on the valves and Bach synthetic slide gel on the slides. I think the valve oil works just fine but I am not at all happy with the performance of the slide gel. It is very hard to squeeze out of the bottle, is very sticky feeling, almost impossible to get off when it ends up on surfaces where it doesn’t belong (and it always does), and once on the slide breaks down very quickly. I want to change to something else but I am worried about Conn/Selmer saying I should use synthetics, and that if I switch to something else it might react badly with the oil. Here is what I have used as slide grease on other instruments in the past: vaseline (in elementary and high school), anhydrous lanolin (in college and after), commercial slide grease (in a tube, forget the name, only used until it was gone). I welcome any suggestion. Honestly, I thought I had found THE stuff when I discovered anhydrous lanolin and I was satisfied with it for many years. But it isn’t synthetic. What would be the best choice that wouldn’t react with the Bach synthetic oil, which I want to keep using?

[matt g]

I use lanolin. Synthetic on the valves. No issues.

[bloke]

I trick out my slides (alignment and surface-to-surface articulation), for the three following reasons:

- to achieve easy fast action (where required)
- so that I can use the same cheap/generic/paraffin/not-even-sold-as-valve-oil/really thin oil that I use on my valves, and so that -when the oil on the slides migrates with the oil on the valves - the slide oil is the same (no thicker) as the valve oil, and - thus - the valves never end up getting "gunked up" with thicker oil or grease-mixed-with-oil.
- I own really good instruments, but I don't like spending can-feel-it-missing-from-my-wallet money (simply) lubricating them.

I've posted about this too many times, but players continue to ask the TubaForumFreakJury about oil and grease.

[DonO.]

I trick out my slides (alignment and surface-to-surface articulation), for the three following reasons:

- to achieve easy fast action (where required)
- so that I can use the same cheap/generic/paraffin/not-even-sold-as-valve-oil/really thin oil that I use on my valves, and so that -when the oil on the slides migrates with the oil on the valves - the slide oil is the same (no thicker) as the valve oil, and - thus - the valves never end up getting "gunked up" with thicker oil or grease-mixed-with-oil.
- I own really good instruments, but I don't like spending can-feel-it-missing-from-my-wallet money (simply) lubricating them.

I've posted about this too many times, but players continue to ask the TubaForumFreakJury about oil and grease.

Yes, bloke, I have read your posts about this several times before. I understand the reasoning. But I don’t think this approach is for me, and I dare say not for many here. The reason being that being able to achieve the necessary precision alignment and surface contact is beyond the capability of most of us. That you are able to do it is great. But because I am stuck with factory specs on the slides (I.e., not overly precise), I believe I will be staying with grease. I’m just looking for the safest combination, least likely to form gunk.

[Sousaswag]

Good grease doesn’t really help poor slide alignment- I’ll tell you what I use, but it’s probably worth taking it to someone to align properly.

My piston F likes Yamaha synthetic oil and resilience slide grease. I ram out of resilience synthetic but liked that too. Alignment is really good on that tuba, to be fair.

You could also just use lanolin- it probably won’t hurt anything. I’ve never had a reaction using any number of different lubricants. I think it has more to do with your body chemistry than anything else.

[arpthark]

To answer your question: If you are really worried about synthetics and traditional stuff mixing in your King, you could just wash all your slides, slide tubes and pistons/casings in Dawn to degrease, rinse, and re-apply lanolin and conventional oil once they're dry.

Another suggestion: I like Ultra-Pure grease, and it's apparently synthetic. It comes in a couple different viscosities (Light, Regular, Heavy): https://www.ultrapureoils.com/lubricants

My experiences: I am not sure how much stock I would put into Conn-Selmer telling you to only use Conn-Selmer-made synthetic products, ya know? That's like when you find recipes on the back of X-Brand food packaging and the recipe always says "1/2 cup of X-Brand Sour Cream" or whatever. Some marketing involved. (I assume that is why you are using Bach stuff, but that's just how I read it, so forgive me if that is incorrect.)

Anecdotally, I've never been really picky with any valve oil or slide grease. I'm sure I've mixed synthetics (which are still petroleum-based, just with other additives) and traditional stuff before, and I can't ever remember that creating an issue. I use lamp oil (on my workbench), Al Cass, Blue Juice, or whatever is in my case. For a while I was just using "Sam Ash" brand yellow-with-age valve oil (??). For rotor joints I use 3-in-1. Slide grease is Hetman's or Ultra-Pure, which I think are synthetic (so I guess I am mixing synthetic and conventional, after all, and no weird results in the past 15+ years of this combination). I usually get my tuba chem-cleaned once a year or every two years or so.

The only time I have ever, ever had an issue with an oil was when I used "B.E.R.P. Bio-Oil" when it first came out around 2008-2010. It was apparently vegetable-oil based and it reacted badly with my body chemistry and horn. I ended up with green, filmy, plasticky coatings in all my valve ports and in my pistons. That is the only time that has ever happened to me. I believe the canola oil base went rancid, and it stunk as well. I am not at all a "lime-y" player, nor an "acidic" player (I get virtually no lacquer wear from my skin), yet that stuff gunked up my tuba like nothing else.

I agree with Sousaswag that it is mostly folks' body chemistry that causes issues.

Good luck!

[bone-a-phone]

In support of the body chemistry thing, I can't use any lube at all on my bass bone's close tolerance rotary valves it binds them up in minutes. My tuba and euph piston valves sticK (as in seize up solid) unless I slather them with thin oil after I play. I've tried several expensive lubes, synthetic and otherwise, and the type doesn't matter nearly as much as the quantity and timing (any time as long as one of the times is after playing).

[tofu]

.

[bloke]

Being absurdly redundant, by making points that i’ve made before (and even just before)…

The front-action tubas that offer the most player-friendly tuning – and with a top-accessible slides are the ones which only really need for the #1 slide and the #4 slide on top to be moved (with movement of the #4 slide hopefully being rare).

I have no idea about the average repair person’s capabilities or customary charges (I don’t hang out with repair people), but it doesn’t take all that much time for me to align (only) those two slides (as they both tend to hang off either side of the valve sets, and don’t require movement of interior parts to change their alignment) and lap them in for someone.

That having been said, I have some instruments such as a four valve compensating E flat and a sousaphone with which I rarely move slides either (though my sousaphone does have an upper number one slide that I do grab for 1-3 and 1-2-3).
I’m STILL going to use thin oil on those slides, because – again – using anything else is going to eventually muck up the valves. People blame various types of valve oil on congealing or turning a certain color, or whatever… But I’m quite convinced that what’s really happening is grease migrating into the valve oil.
I’ve stated many times that I’m really quite lazy, don’t have time to screw around with cleaning mucky grease-oil off of my valves periodically-nor-often, nor dissolving lime out of my instruments (which can be completely avoided by keeping the interiors of valvesets oily), or any of that sort of stuff. Further, I’m just not going to be gullible enough to pay seven, eight, or nine dollars for some little 1 or 2 ounce bottle of somebody’s medicine show magic. I just want to pick up my instrument, take it to the job, oil it, play the gig, and go home.
Sheep grease (a Midwestern trumpet maker sells it in tiny little jars) as been a “thing“ for quite a while (as well as relabeled and non-mentholysed Chapstick) but those are just not for me.

Sometimes-or-often, I believe that things - that are overly-complicated and problem-creating - are that way, “just because“.

I’m not rebutting here, but just encouraging avoiding the creation of problems as well as promoting simplicity.

(I’m also one of those people who gets exasperated about being coerced into using gasoline which has been ruined with corn alcohol…but – unlike the mixing-grease-with-valve-oil thing – I hardly have a choice with the gasoline thing.)

K.I.S.S.

[DonO.]

(I’m also one of those people who gets exasperated about being coerced into using gasoline which has been ruined with corn alcohol…but – unlike the mixing-grease-with-valve-oil thing – I hardly have a choice with the gasoline thing.)

K.I.S.S.

There is one gas station up here with a special pump for ethanol free gasoline, which they sell at a premium price of course. So even though it’s not common, it can be had.

[DonO.]

Couple of points of clarification:

It is bloke’s theory about grease + oil = valve muck that caused me to question this. After 14 months with this particular horn I’ve had no problems along that line.

I don’t think it’s quite ready for a chemical clean yet but when I finally take it to the shop for that I probably should ask then to align the slides. I can tell some are not quite right.

The paperwork from Conn/Selmer doesn’t specify brand, simply that it had been pre-lubricated with synthetics. I used Bach brand oil and grease (not really grease, they call it “gel”) because a) I assumed they had used their own products and b) the Bach stuff was easily available. I think the oil performs well, but the gel is pretty bad.

[bloke]

off topic
…and probably (in my post, just above) a bad analogy… Of course… here as well (I buy it all the time: about $.80 more for 87 octane and about $1.80 more for 93 octane), but it is really stupid that over 99% of the fuel that’s available is ruined with corn liquor (ruined gasoline that no one really wants to buy nor use) and that 10% more gasoline (unadulterated) costs far more than 10% more …the purposes of which are to coerce us into purchasing the garbage fuel.
Most people do not understand what the political/economic system called fa_ _ _ _ _ is all about.
The classical definition of it is this:
rulers deciding what types of products the private sector produces

It was a bad analogy, because there’s rulers’ coercion involved in the gasoline, whereas “ inevitably mixing grease with oil inside brass instruments” is “because we’ve always done it that way”.

[iiipopes]

My opinion FWIW, based on my decades of personal experience:
1) Slide alignment is paramount. You can have the best lubricants in the world, but the slides need to be in proper alignment so the lubricant can do its job.
2) I have my preferences, but in the end, make and model of lubricants is secondary. I purchase inexpensive lubricants in bulk for all my assortment of brass instruments. As you recall from my previous postings, I have sold all my rotary valve instruments but one (a Ukraine oval baritone - anybody make me an offer?), and only play piston instruments now. I keep the old bottles that have come with various horns I have purchased over the decades. I use that first, then refill them with whatever I have available. That way I have a small bottle in each case so I am not without at a gig because I forgot to grab one off the shelf.
3) When valves wear to the point they just won't hold plain lubricant anymore I add a few drops of pharmaceutical grade mineral oil to regular oil to help the valves seal, since a 16-ounce bottle at WalMart costs about half as much as a 2-ounce bottle of "boutique" or "classic" valve oil.
4) With what I have on hand, I probably have enough lubricants to last me the rest of my life and then some, since all I need now is valve oil and slide lubricant, and I don't need the additional sewing machine oil for rotor spindles or 3-N-1 oil for rotor paddle springs and such.

[bloke]

If you own a King (??) those slides are quite easy to move around, except for the issue of the lower #1 being affected by straightening the upper #1 (requiring some analysis and thought before action).

If yours happens to have a lacquer finish, it’s even easier to do without evidence of it being done.

King pistons - manufactured during the current era - are not the closest fitting valves in the industry by any means (which defines that slightly mucked up oil is going to be less of an issue).
I’m not putting them down, and those are very nice playing instruments… I actually have one for sale right now… I’m just stating what is.
========
Some of my tubas feature pretty darn close fitting rotors and/or pistons. (some do not)
With the close-fitting ones, even stingily applied woodwind key oil on upper slides slows down the valves quite soon thereafter.
========
The super-thin/super-cheap oil that I use does not “last”, but it lasts through every playing session, which is long enough. I don’t believe that I would want it to “last“. Reapplying it daily - or even more often (every rehearsal, performance, or practice session) - is (I am quite convinced) contributory to discouraging lime buildup. Lime slows down valves, and destroys yellow brass.

[The Big Ben]

IMHO: Control the amount of any slide lube used. I use the Bach red stuff in the bottle on my King 1241. I put one ring of lube around the end of the inner slide tube that is about 1/16" wide and about 1/32" thick. I put each side of the tube in the horn separately and move out back and forth a few times to distribute it inside the tube. Then, I inset the slide in the proper way and move it back and forth a few time to distributee the lube. There usually is a small amount of lube that gets squeezed out around the end of the tube. I wipe all of that off.

I may be a phillistine but I don't get all of the slide tromboning I see others do and hear people talk about.

[bloke]

slides and using them:
I’m just not a strong enough player to continuously lip a second space C up to pitch when the instrument is three inches too long.
I need to push the (B-flat tuba) #1 slide in all the way (from one and a half inches out) and easily enough to where I don’t even have to think about it nor notice that I’m even doing it.

Trumpet players - who play well enough for me to hire, or who are hired to work where I work - do not just hold their instruments and mash buttons. The very best trumpet *player I know locally had me fabricate and install a main tuning slide gadget on their C instrument… ‘ interesting how they play so nicely in tune…

Horn players are constantly moving their left hands to address pitch quirks/natural acoustical tendencies in their instruments.

My F tuba is not only an anomaly but is absurdly flexible. I just don’t move any slides on that instrument. That having been said, it has six valves. Additionally - if I’m not really paying attention, I can probably play most of the pitches just about anywhere with that instrument.
_____________
*this guy: pictured in another thread

42C53F42-BFC0-45E5-9E67-D88AF03710B1.jpeg (10.97 KiB) Viewed 1448 times

[acemorgan]

Bach synthetic slide gel on the slides . . . I am not at all happy with the performance of the slide gel. It is very hard to squeeze out of the bottle, is very sticky feeling, almost impossible to get off when it ends up on surfaces where it doesn’t belong

A far more generous description than I would have given. That slide gel defies description. It is impossible to get out of the "drip" spout without using a pliers (I had to take the spout out). It is so tacky, it feels like silicon caulk. I don't understand how it has a following. I will admit that if you have a slide so loose that you worry about it falling out, this stuff will hold it in place!

[DonO.]

Does anyone know how to acquire some USP grade 100% pure anhydrous lanolin? The last time I bought some was 40 years ago and I had to go to a pharmacy prescription counter and order it there. Is there any easier way these days?

[iiipopes]

slides and using them:
I’m just not a strong enough player to continuously lip a second space C up to pitch when the instrument is three inches too long.
I need to push the (B-flat tuba) #1 slide in all the way (from one and a half inches out) and easily enough to where I don’t even have to think about it nor notice that I’m even doing it.

This ^ Those who have followed my posts on sousaphones know that I do the same thing: convert the upper loop of the 1st valve circuit on a Conn souzy to a moveable slide, shortened, so I can both push for 2nd space C and pull for valve combinations. After many years of playing this setup, it is automatic with me also. Fortunately, my new tuba is already set up this way, with easy access to #1 slide and a little short so Eb and Ab are about 1/2 to 5/8 inch out, a little more for 1+2, and shove for 2nd space C. Being a 4-valve, 3rd is set for 2+3 to be in tune, and who cares about trill fingerings on tuba. If I have a long legato section, I have the option of pulling 1 further and pushing 3 so F and C can be 1+3 in tune instead of 4 when transitioning say, C to D and such to stay in tune and avoid burbles.

[hrender]

Re: synthetic grease

I'm not a big fan of most branded slide grease. I find it too sticky.

This stuff has been a good synthetic lube, and it's food grade: https://www.amazon.com/Super-Lube-Silic ... B08M8NYHLW

It seems to play well with the synthetic valve oils I've used.

I had a tuning thumb ring put on the first valve slide on the Martin per a suggestion from Ed Firth. Since I need it to be quicker, I'm trying this stuff on it: https://www.resilienceoils.com/products ... -slide-gel

It's been good.

YMMV.