cutting Fat Bastard down to size (OK. I'm probably -??- done posting to this thread.)

[bloke]

This Miraphone 98 - when I play it - barely tends flat.
In the summer (75 - 77 degrees in my tuba room) it has been offering (almost) A=440 all the way in, and - after playing for several minutes - I might (??) be able to pull out the main slide 3/16".

Winter is upon us, the house (and - likely - venues) are closer to 65 degrees, and it was time (Carmina Burana, this weekend, and a ton of Christmas gigs that feature a bunch of "fat jolly" tunes) to get this thing more reliably up to pitch.

It was complicated, because it is an inside/outside slide, and also features a cross brace (with feet larger than the ferrules ended up being), but it's now done.

Uncharacteristically, I actually took some in-progress pictures.
THE single trickiest thing was shortening the ferrule on the INSIDE slide tube which comes out of the 5th rotor (as I didn't quite think it through, and actually needed a shorter one there as well...so I had to shorten the EXISTING one
- on the SLIDE tube side of it, and
- WITHOUT removing it and bunging it up...
...but I thought of a way to do that.

Anyway...I took more than an inch (yeah...not all that much, but just enough) off the instrument. I can now deal with tuning, will worry less about focusing pitches "up in/above the staff", and also (if there's unexpected traffic, a wreck, road construction, sleet, or whatever) if I find that there's no time to warm up the instrument, I'll still be able to "just" manage, as far as tuning is concerned. It's nearly 7:30, and a bass trombone customer is about to arrive from east Tennessee, so I'm going to throw up the pictures I took and may-or-may not go back - right now - and type comments. The pictures are in order, so...

Also, I tore the thing apart before taking the first picture. (I assume folks are smart enough to figure that out...even though I stated it.

I have more to do to this instrument later...two more things that involve shortening (circuits).













This ferrule (below) is the one that I shortened on the SLIDE side without removing it.

[the elephant]

Nice reshaping of the brace flanges.

I love it when you can do this to the slide, saving the horn itself. It is so much easier to refinish or clean up a slide rather than the spaghetti in the valve section. Miraphone generally uses ferrules with more than enough length to cut them down by 50% if such a thing is needed.

Nice job, sir.

[bloke]

Shortening an 18 feet long to 34 feet long instrument by only about 1-1/4 inches doesn’t do much – particularly when the temperature is dropping at the same time the work is being done…
… but it allows me - regarding frequencies being produced - to “tread water”.

Playing sharp is amateurish, but playing a too-long tuba in tune in the middle or upper register is asking to chip notes, which is also amateurish.

bloke “always trying to fool contractors and music directors into believing that I’m more than I actually am”

[bloke]

When I was playing engagements last weekend, I didn’t touch this instrument I and haven’t played since (as I am attempting to catch up on piled up repairs prior to the December playing marathon during the first half of the month, per usual - “usual” meaning “prior to the economic shutdown”).

This morning, the heat is off and it is 66° in here. The instrument is cold, and I am getting A=440 (with the main slide all the way) with the very first blow of the open overtones. (In reference to the previous paragraph, this is with flabby-not-having-played-in-several-days lips.) Obviously, the pitch would have crept up quickly, had I continued to play.

I think that’s good enough, and really don’t wish to shorten this instrument any more - particularly considering that it is a large B-flat and the tuning slide range is not particularly generous.

I do – however – plan to unsolder the entire #1 slide assembly, trim down the vertical portions of its two receiving elbows, and drop this assembly down about a half an inch (net gain: 1 inch), in order to raise up the first valve C (with the #1 slide pushed all the way in), yet maintain the entire tuning range of the first valve slide.
I doubt if this will also give me a viable 5-1 low F-sharp alternate (lower than 2-3, yet not flat), but we’ll see…

Once I’ve shortened the #1 circuit as described above, I will probably realize a 2 inch wide total (required for good intonation) tuning range for this slide, as previously I was moving it from all the way in to about 1-1/2 inches out (“lipping” 1st valve C a little bit) – with my sharpest pitch (involving the #1 circuit) being 1-3 (for C below the staff. This slide’s tuning range is considerably longer than 2 inches, so I will be fine.)

(My goal - with any tuba that I own - is to only feel required to move the #1 slide “on the fly”, with the only possible exception perhaps being one very low second pitch partial close to the open fundamental – whereby I might feel compelled to move something else out. (Feeling compelled to move #3 at all - or to [rare exceptions] mess with any of the others - define themselves as “annoying distractions” for me.)

[2ba4t]

May I dare to ask why you do not, as a first option, cut a good 2 inches off each side of one of the bigger back bows. This leaves the front untouched and the full general tuning slide intact. I find this does not change the internal tuning and allows for a slight pull on the general tuning slide. On a BBb one can take off even 6 inches if the beast is really flat. Obviously the u shape following the valves is the best place if it's possible.

Even if there are suitably placed ferruled joints I still use a mini-drill Dremel whatever to cut not de-solder. The leaves the lacquer fairly intact. Then I get out the tails in the ferrule, cut more off if necessary and then pack with shim and use one of the excellent copper glues now available. [Sorry, blasphemy - but they are a really great way of getting strong, airtight and permanent joints.]

If there are no available joints on the u-tube to use, I just cut parallel sections and then do the same. If the taper is large then I may need to do this in two separate places. Often of course I will use a very fine gun and solder. After a really good polish and local repainting with varnish you can scarcely see the cuts. If necessary of course one can make or rather salvage ferrules.

If the valves are flat which I find is pretty rare then of course you have to hack a fair bit of each arm.

I love very slightly sharp tubas - just minutely bright. They ring through and have a slight focus.

[arpthark]

I love very slightly sharp tubas - just minutely bright. They ring through and have a slight focus.

No offense, but this may be the first time I've ever seen this opinion voiced and I'm not quite sure what you mean.

"Ring through" = noticeable because they are slightly out of tune with the ensemble...?

[bloke]

To each their own.

[Doc]

Make sure you cut it enough so that when you sell it to me, I can play it up to 442 with my big mouth.

Doc (playing low on everything)

[bloke]

I’m not heating this place up above about 60 or 61 degrees. I’m perfectly comfortable when I wear jeans and a sweatshirt with shoes and an undershirt, and I don’t like paying for crap that’s gone before I even pay for it…like utilities.
The fireplace gets a lot of heat spread around the house, and sun coming in the windows on days when it gets up to 50° heats up the house warmer than the thermostat is set as well, but when it’s actually only about 60 or 61 degrees in here, it’s damned challenging to play any of these tubas a whole lot higher than A = 437 or so when they are cold, and it takes quite a while to warm them up.

[bloke]

I worked on a ridiculously-twisted-around-valve-section and folded-flat-mouthpipe marching euphonium today (which defines that I’ve completed a fairly decent sized purchase order for repairs, so I can turn the invoice in Monday when school reopens).

I’m trying to talk myself into taking fat bastard out to the shop tonight and dropping the first valve slide down (without shortening its tuning range) about 1/2 inch, in order to allow the #1 circuit to be about an inch shorter when the slide is pushed all the way in.
I might conk out, but if I go ahead and go out there, I’ll take some before and during pictures. I don’t think this is very interesting, but a few others seem to think it is.

As this is a B-flat tuba, it will help the second-space 1st-valve C tuning, as well as hopefully offering me a flatter-yet-not-flat 1-5 alternate for low F-sharp (also with the #1 slide pushed all the way in).

Maybe, I seem to picky about tuning and I’m always talking about tuning… But there isn’t all that much melodic stuff going on where I’m hired to play (orchestras ’n’ stuff), and I get the biggest kick out of making the low brass chords (or entire orchestral chords) “pop”…and it ain’t gonna happen if the tuba pitch is not in tune,

[bloke]

OK...done. Mrs. bloke helped hold at awkward angles, and handed me stuff (so I wouldn't have to set this thing down repeatedly).

- second space C - FIXED
- low F-sharp (as well as C-sharp above it - both formerly 2-3) now flatter (in tune) with the 1-5 alternate

Actually, I've got a better on-the-fly "double-low C" (rather than the stinky-sharp 5-2-3-4, I've got a luxuriously-just-slightly-flat 5-1-3-4 - again: with #1 pushed in all the way. (Come-on, you C-tuba people...Many of you struggle with a stinky-sharp OPEN "double-low C", but just don't talk about it. )

The story board begins AFTER I unbolted the mouthpipe, AFTER I disconnected the #5 linkage, AFTER I removed and set aside the #5 and #1 slides, and AFTER I un-soldered and removed the #1 outside slide tubes:

Obviously not every little "sub-step" was photographed.
Particularly towards the end, there was more than just a quick "check it once" of measuring/alignment, and (once all soldered up) "lapping" the slide back in for a minute or two. The final "lapping" was done with the tuba UPSIDE-DOWN (due to me being lazy), so I could filth-up the insides of the outside slide tubes and clean them back out without any of that mess migrating into the #1 rotor. I also didn't photograph any actual soldering - of the two tubing joints nor the two brace joints...Both of us were busy - either soldering or holding the tuba.

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9. I call this ALIGNMENT. Some other people (who like to get on my nerves) call it "tweaking".



10. Buff and shoot with clear some other day...It's time to test, and then go to bed.

[bloke]

I aligned the slide a minutely better than the factory did, though they did an exceptionally good job.
At first, it didn’t feel as good as it did before, but - after just ten minutes of playing today - it felt exceptionally good.

[matt g]

Both of my Mirafones (both old enough to be “f”) had fantastic slide alignment.

My 4/4 horn does as well, thanks to the meticulous work by @Matt Walters when he was building it.

I need to get the bigun’ down to Matt and have him align those slides along with some other cosmetic stuff. Every Melton/Meinl Weston piston horn I’ve run across has some wonky slides from the factory. My 32 on the other hand was fine.

I do think the “flatter” aspect of a rotor set allows for better alignment than a piston set, but regardless, Miraphone seems to be consistently good at offering fairly precise alignment out of the box.

[bloke]

Prior to many tuba players deciding to move #1 slides to address pitch discrepancies, I saw quite a few 186 and other models of Mirafone tubas whereby the first slides were “statically” tunable, but that was about it (similar to King, etc.)

I recall removing the non-adjustable braces (when discrepancies were more than I could get away with fooling around with the lead solder joints) trimming a little bit from them - or adding to them, and reinstalling them.

I don’t know how close your age is to mine, but I saw quite a few 1960s instruments that had never been to a shop and never had anything addressed previously.

When I advertised my 5450, I discussed how remarkably good the slide alignment is… Because I consider that to be an unusual feature with instruments made in the B&S factory (particularly during that time period).
I’m still thinking that the slide alignment was so exceptionally good because mine was from the first batch of those instruments sent over to the United States, and - perhaps - they were trying to make a really good showing.

I think Miraphone stepped up their game at some point very long ago (particularly as they were realizing that Americans were buying four and five valve versions of their models, and using them professionally - rather than only in town bands, schools, and for marching). This instruments’ top slides were all nicely aligned… Only the #1 was fast when I purchased it… I’m the second owner, so I don’t know if anything was done to it.

…these tubas that utilize computer programs which predetermine intonation based on bugle tapers:
It’s pretty to tell it’s pretty easy to tell which tubas those are. This is a huge tuba, so - in the winter time - it takes a while for the entire bugle to warm up to optimum operating temperature… at first, some pitches are a bit goofy, but - once it’s warmed up - this thing is pretty darned amazing.

That’s as far as me shortening the instrument and shortening the #1 slide, I wonder if the people who test these instruments’ prototypes are more “closed down“ types of players than am I…(??)

[matt g]

I think I did some backyard lapping of the slides with toothpaste or similar and that was it. Then a mix of that pink Selmer slide grease and Al Cass for lubricant.

[bloke]

I try not to give too much advice about doing too many things to instruments. Words are one thing. Watching someone is another thing. Being watched doing something for the first few times is yet another thing. Experience is even more of a thing.

[bloke]

I try not to give too much advice about doing too many things to instruments. Words are one thing. Watching someone is another thing. Being watched doing something for the first few times is yet another thing. Experience is even more of a thing.

I definitely wouldn’t consider my old shade tree mechanic stuff useful advice! :-P

[bloke]

I try not to give too much advice about doing too many things to instruments. Words are one thing. Watching someone is another thing. Being watched doing something for the first few times is yet another thing. Experience is even more of a thing.

I definitely wouldn’t consider my old shade tree mechanic stuff useful advice! :-P

yeah...
When I say or type "words-words-words" for someone standing right in front of me (and no matter how specific and organized I offer them), they (most often) do everything (at best) completely backwards/inside-out...so I've decided that it's best to not respond when people are asking for a textbox/uploaded-version of some youtube "how-to".

Above were a couple of relatively simply jobs (c. 2 hours and 1 hour, respectively), but they were carried out on a fairly expensive piece of equipment, and there were tons of potentially "WHOA...hold on there!!!" moments/points related to each one of them.

[bloke]

' just noticed that a Fat Bastard pic (picture at the BOTTOM of this post) was uploaded onto an orchestra website by the orchestra's Freeway Philharmonia League.

Back when I finished building the squatty Holton, I showed a picture of it and me - to demonstrate how short it is.
...this one:



============================================

In contrast, below is a picture that shows how big (TWO) FB's are.
Notice how I had to arch my back and put my knee out to hold this thing up...
...and then: "Take the picture NOW, please !"
It's 27 lbs., but it's (again: just as is the FB on the right) also big and a bit awkward.



Just in case you haven't noticed, I'm REALLY old.
(Also, I'm older than I used to be.)

[arpthark]

pics

for sense of scale - how tall are you?