basstrombasso

[Finetales]

I won’t berate them - because I’m not a bass trombonist, but I don’t hear a lot of complementary things about Bach bass trombones – including from some of those who own them.

That's likely because a lot of Bach bass trombones out there are not good instruments. Every brand (even Yamaha) and era has dogs of course, but for whatever reason it seems like there are disproportionately more bad Bachs still floating around than other makers. There are certainly some bad Conns out there...I once very briefly owned an Elkhart 71H that was mind-numbingly mediocre. But in my experience, buying an older Yamaha, Elkhart Conn, Olds, etc. will usually get you a good-playing instrument. Bachs seem to be more of a roll of the dice. I have played a handful of Bach bass trombones that knocked my socks off...a couple vintage, one not-so-vintage, and one brand new. The rest, I'd rather forget.

Many trombonists claim to not like Bachs, despite playing Bach-style modular horns and trying to get that Chicago Bach sound. I'm convinced they just haven't played a really good Bach yet.

Of course, I'm a Conn-head, so what do I know?

[bloke]

not too much today, but am encouraged...

(Mainly, I caught up on paperwork, called about four-jillion horn players - trying to find one to do a set of four Christmas gigs, and got a used trumpet ready to sell to a middle school...ie. not an amazingly productive day.)

I (frankly) forgot (after taking this trashed bell section apart) that there were some parts included with this bell section.
I wasted (a small amount of) money on a few parts, but whatever.

Anyway, I found the ORIGINAL brace from the F tubing to the bell, so tonight I spent five minutes and swapped out the (scrounged) brace for the genuine oem brace.

WHAT'S REALLY GRATIFYING is that - even though this bell section was totally F.U.B.A.R. before I straightened it out - the oem brace (now) fits like a glove. ...which indicates that (apparently...??) I might have done SOMETHING right.

[bloke]

I won’t berate them - because I’m not a bass trombonist, but I don’t hear a lot of complementary things about Bach bass trombones – including from some of those who own them.

When I was looking for a bell section, I wasn’t particularly looking for anything specific.
That having been said, I knew that I wasn’t looking for the 9 inch Olds bells that I have, I sort of knew that I really didn’t want a Bach bell, and - even though, in the back of my mind, I mostly wanted a vintage Conn bell, I disliked the idea of wasting a perfectly good Conn vintage bass trombone on myself, when some really good bass trombone player (who would truly appreciate it and play it better than I would) could own and play it.

I suppose I would’ve been happy with a King bass trombone bell or a Holton bass trombone bell…probably even an old red 10-inch Reynolds bass trombone bell…
…but swapping some parts for this Conn knockoff seemed like wonderful luck, as well as being “the perfect thing”…ie. not wasting a real vintage Conn on myself.

Bach 50bx was the defacto pro horn for a long time after Conn stopped making 62h and before Edwards got rolling, so people think it makes them look smart to talk smack about Bach bass bones (unless it says Mount Vernon or New York on them, then they are holy relics for some reason). Bachs can be variable in quality. One of the best basses I've played was a Bach dependent. But if you're just using components, I think the variability was in the assembly, not in the piece parts.

Olds are very under rated. I put together a frankenbone Olds bass (I think using the same bell that you have) that was great for a certain type of playing. Reynolds tend to fall into a category with Olds, although Olds never made a 10" bell. Reynolds made some very playable bass bones - NY Phil's Ostrander was one of the first to play a Reynolds bass.

I would not hesitate to take apart a 72h. There are a lot of them out there, especially ones that need rescuing. And single valve basses are very unfashionable with most folks right now.

There is nothing at all wrong with a 6b or 7b or 8b King. Nothing at all. Was it Cleveland or Cincinnati that used all King bones for a while. Benge 290 is also a perfectly good instrument. I put a King 5B bell on a double valve tenor once to give it a little oomph. And a 6b valveset on that Olds S20 I frankened.

You have to be careful about Holtons. There are some holtons that people hoard, and some that no one cares about. !69, 185, and even 180 to some extent certain people hold in high reverence. But 181, 183 are valued as recycling materials. Well, some people like 181s, but they shouldn't. I've got a 159 that I'm putting a plugin valve on to use as a tweener.

Nobody gets sentimental about Yamaha, so that's a safe project bell, but also any bell you can find that needs rescued, there's no shame in that. Especially since you can do the work.

"One man's trash is another man's treasure".

I'm most interested in the valve set you're going to use for this, so why don't you just go ahead and get that part of the project started?

This is all about what I have found as well, having repaired (and sure: played for a bit) so many bass trombones for so many people over the years.
There was definitely an anything/everything Bach craze that hit a few decades ago, and (I believe) artificially supported the 50 bass trombone sales… just as it artificially supported some of the particularly crappy models of instruments in the trumpet family that they make. Several people I know who have them wish they had something else… and it’s regardless of vintage and configuration. One friend has a very shiny early in line one that is gleaming pretty, and has been modernized with the middle finger trigger for the other valve. He’s offering to sell it for a stupid price, but no one seems to want to buy it from him. I have another friend/colleague who (playing bass trombone a considerably larger percentage of the time than the first person mentioned just previously) picked up a distressed 72H (and I brought it back for him) Is absolutely in love with the sound, – even though he’s “the bass trombonist” in an orchestra that’s a few thousand bucks a year, doesn’t seem to give a flying flip about low b natural…
(rarely found in classical literature, and often doubled with the tuba in pops literature).
Even though he’s got a double rotor Jimbo rig at home for that, it’s not worth the sound degradation to him to play something other than the 72H.
Holton 181 trombones are OK, but are extremely extremely front heavy. I’m not an ergonomics person, but seriously…
The California Olds (full sized - several models) bass trombones - specifically, that were being built right before they were shuttered - were amazing. There aren’t many of them, people don’t know about them, and so many people seem to be into the stuff that (I think) doesn’t sound very good (two currently USA-made “boutique” brands in particular). The 1950s/1960s 9 inch bell California Olds bass trombones sound bad, and (two different ones that have been here) cannot possibly be played up to 440 tuning. I would be interested in (briefly) hearing someone play who owns one of those and claims to like it.
I really like the sound of the 71/2/3 Conns, as well as the larger bell throat, different alloy, and more rare 60/2 Conns - which sound more like the largest version of the 70H (early) instruments. Sadly, most of those instruments are now worn out or torn up. The stuff coming out of that factory - or group of factories - might as well be Chinese copies, considering workmanship and similarity to the originals. (I wonder how long that conglomerate is going to remain in business…??)
Again, I’m just not a fan of the (myriad varianzi of the) E or S bass trombones. They don’t bother me, when they are played by fine players, but they also don’t do anything for me at all. … I suppose it’s a bit like listening to people play all of these various 6/4 semi-sousaphonic (lacking core and front - unless super-blatted, doctored up with F tuba mouthpieces, or played by extremely powerful players - who practice five hours a day - at which point they become much too loud) C tubas (and I’ve been down several branches of that rabbit hole)…meh.

[bloke]

While working on/at other things, these projects of ours are always in the backs of our minds, yes?

I just picked up a cloth tape measure, and it appears that I only have around 8 feet of instrument (so far) showing (even including the "imaginary" not-yet-built parts), here...

I may just build in an UPPER main slide (along with a lower, which would mean THREE main slides, including the one on the bell section), so that - as a failsafe for random wonky pitches - I could install a main slide trigger. Otherwise, it could just sit there "passively" and add length.

' a fairly good chance of...
...a good friend/colleague who books a bunch of gigs serving as 2nd trombone on the springtime Dvořák 7 gig...so (assuming this thing is completed, and I've the courage to use it) I had better do a d@mn good job - if there's any hope (??) of him seriously considering me for (and sure: I would expect him to call SLIDE trombonists, first) any trombone work (ie. BEYOND a tuba/bass trombone doubling gig) - playing this thing.

As (simply) a cobbled-together (slide) bass trombone, I REALLY DO like the quality of the sonority this thing is generating.

Y'all can buy the Jinbao version in three years (ref: the Buescher C helicon knock-off).

oh yeah: The weight of the now-completed bell section (to be supported by the valve section) is 2.7 lbs.(1.2 kg).

EDIT:
Y'all like pictures, so here are a couple of glamour shots (first-stage polished) of the bell section.
(I swallowed pretty hard when I first received it, but was/am very grateful to the person who offered it to me, and knew I could repair it.)
I'm satisfied with everything (tuning slides, rotor, dent removal, braces), so I will now move on to the valve section.

[Finetales]

The California Olds (full sized - several models) bass trombones - specifically, that were being built right before they were shuttered - were amazing. There aren’t many of them, people don’t know about them, and so many people seem to be into the stuff that (I think) doesn’t sound very good (two currently USA-made “boutique” brands in particular). The 1950s/1960s 9 inch bell California Olds bass trombones sound bad, and (two different ones that have been here) cannot possibly be played up to 440 tuning. I would be interested in (briefly) hearing someone play who owns one of those and claims to like it.

Funnily enough, apart from my 1.5 72Hs, I also currently have an Olds S24G waiting to get fixed up. The biggest issue is that the bell was crunched when it was shipped (poorly...) to me, but the other thing I'm going to have fixed is the fabulously uncomfortable stock linkage. Still, even now before the work has been done, it's a phenomenal instrument. One of the only bass trombones I've ever held that I enjoy playing as much as my 72H. (And one of the only others was an Olds P22!)

[bloke]

After picking over the bell section, I went back and picked over the playing slide. I revisited the typical area where clumsy players bump the upper tube against the bell rim, and also barely touched up the straightness of one of the outside tubes by about .003” - halfway down.

Olds made very thick playing slide tubes, and this one - being tuning in the slide - makes it particularly heavy, but I’ve got it working darn good - particularly considering how old it is and that it was surely at school-owned instrument.

I actually pulled it out and was playing (at ) it a little bit today.

We’ve got some cold temperatures coming, but today in the late afternoon it was probably about 76° inside my tuba room/office/sitting room. I only had to pull the main slide out about another quarter inch to compensate for the high temperature. I think this thing will work out fine.

[bloke]

I really don’t like buying a bunch of new stuff when I build projects, because I have so much stuff laying around here, and because I don’t like spending also an epic amount of money on top of an epic amount of time.

I sort of boxed myself into a corner when I chose to use long-discontinued slide/bell connection parts (California Olds), but I found a Holton bass trombone connection part – which I probably have had for forty years – that seems to bolt up to Olds well enough.

At least I have this to go on the valve section, if nothing else will work.
I also discovered that Conn threads are perfect for the lock nut, but that the tapered portion is too small for Olds. I have a Conn part, obviously, and I suppose I could silver braze the Conn threads (nicely fitting Olds, and more of them) to the Holton taper, to avoid getting into a lathe project.
I will also probably try Bach - when I am with my friend (upcoming Christmas gig) who has a Bach model 50X bass trombone.

Again… At least I have this ancient Holton part, and it seems to work:

8DE0F9FA-9A8A-4FA5-901E-AB93AE0987D3.jpeg (10.24 KiB) Viewed 1730 times

I also spent a little bit more time today playing slide articulating surfaces… I’m liking this slide more and more, though I doubt I will use it very much.

Again, the goal is to get this thing rolling in time for an annual Easter gig that involves mostly bass trombone music and some tuba music, as well as playing Dvorak 7 with one of my per-service freeway philharmonics.
I’ve got to get the six-valve valve section built, learn to play it, learn its quirks, and learn the music. March is going to arrive very soon.
SIDEBAR:
The pleasure – for me, in such projects such as this - is having access to/use of the instrument…and I find very little pleasure in figuring out how to make them nor the making of them.

[Bob Kolada]

The California Olds (full sized - several models) bass trombones - specifically, that were being built right before they were shuttered - were amazing. There aren’t many of them, people don’t know about them, and so many people seem to be into the stuff that (I think) doesn’t sound very good (two currently USA-made “boutique” brands in particular). The 1950s/1960s 9 inch bell California Olds bass trombones sound bad, and (two different ones that have been here) cannot possibly be played up to 440 tuning. I would be interested in (briefly) hearing someone play who owns one of those and claims to like it.

Funnily enough, apart from my 1.5 72Hs, I also currently have an Olds S24G waiting to get fixed up. The biggest issue is that the bell was crunched when it was shipped (poorly...) to me, but the other thing I'm going to have fixed is the fabulously uncomfortable stock linkage. Still, even now before the work has been done, it's a phenomenal instrument. One of the only bass trombones I've ever held that I enjoy playing as much as my 72H. (And one of the only others was an Olds P22!)

My Kanstul contrabone arrived with a crushed bell, that was a real bummer. I let one of the Greenhoe guys use it for a concert in return for him fixing it.

[bloke]

Just in case anyone was wondering whether I have thought this far ahead...
This is going to be the mouthpipe tube (bent, per a typical longer "bass/contrabass-length" cimbasso).

The mouthpiece receiver (just as with the longer/larger F cimbasso that I built for myself) will be a Conn-Selmer plain brass one (style-wise, reminiscent of European-made M-W/B&S receivers), which Conn-Selmer manufactures for the King 2280 euphonium (right look/right size/available/inexpensive).

This tube - once cut - will be about 10-1/2 inches long, and - with the receiver (shown below) attached - close to a foot long.
Inner diameters of each end are shown in the picture:




Yeah...I have to buy this, but dealer cost
is about the same as two McDonald's plain
hamburgers, two small fries, and two small drinks
(*things which I would not buy anyway).

_____________________________________________
* https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/iceland ... rs-2126456

[bloke]

The valves on this valveset are in exceptionally good condition, but a lot of the slide tubing is dented so badly that pairs of tubes are going to have to be removed and simply discarded.
I have some replacement new inside/outside tubing, and – after I get through this next wave of repairs (if I can get them done before the December gig wave starts), i’m going to see if I can do like Wade does and cut all the needed replacement tubes to length.
I tried to do a survey to see if anyone owns or has played one of these instruments with this valve section – to find out if any of the circuits are cut a little bit too long at the factory. I got no responses, so I’m going to go ahead and copy that all of them and shorten then later if I have to do that.
========
When I built the big instrument in F, there were parts which were easy to bend (simply in the holding/playing of the thing) that needed a considerable amount of bracing.
This thing’s valveset will be smaller and more delicate, and I’m sure the same issues will appear, perhaps in spades.

[bloke]

Parts scrounging (including a CASE to hold EVERYTHING) seems to be moving along at a (pleasing-to-me) clip.

I just remembered that a school (apparently/sadly a marching euphonium was stolen...but they HATED them and replaced them with marching baritones anyway, so...) gave me a NICE-condition marching euphonium case...
I pulled it down, and it appears that everything may well fit in it.

The slide will need to be angled next to the bell (rather than along the case edge) as it's a bit longer than the case interior dimension, but that's fine...

The picture just shows everything hovering up ABOVE the case interior - as all of that marching-euphonium blocking will need to be removed, and the entire thing will need to be re-blocked...

...but (once again) free (and good) stuff.

Currently, "free" is just about where my budget seems to be hovering.

[bloke]

NO idea how this will pan out...but - even though it's Sunday - it's one Sunday BEFORE most churches start dragging people-like-me in off the streets to make weird noises (I have this ONE DAY off from the rootin'-tootin' xmas marathon), so I'm going TRY to at LEAST make SOME progress on this valveset.

I'm SUPPOSED to be playing this thing (for dough, and - hopefully - in tune) in March . March will be here in barely more than an INSTANT.

I'm probably going to cut slide tubes, today. If I can mount any of them - all the better.

SOMEHOW, I'm going to need to alter the planes in which the #1 slide circuits exist.
Maybe (since that's probably going to be problematic), I should try to tackle that, today...(??)

Sibelius is in D major/minor, B-flat major, and - well... - several other keys, too.
The Dvořák is mostly in D-minor, but also other keys.

Obviously, I'm hoping for a good 1-2 D as well as a good open D.

It's a pretty darn good band, so it's important that I not suck.
(The F cimbasso is the fail-safe/emergency-backup...I got through Schubert 9 without one word being uttered from the podium in my direction, so I lucked out on that one.)

SibDv.png (29.95 KiB) Viewed 1608 times

I also MOSTLY cover bass trombone parts at my regular Easter job (April 9, this year), so (beginning this year) maybe (??) it would be nice to ACTUALLY cover them with (ok...) a VALVED bass trombone. ...same church for Christmas Eve, but I don't believe I'll be able to pull this rabbit out of my hat that soon.


...and I've always had a bit of a thing for Dvorak, so...
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8_zN7p9HjFo/T ... s+back.jpg

[bloke]

Sadly, I couldn't find any .562" bore (ie. "American baritone horn bore") slide bows which were within the leg-spacing range that would be usable, so I had to make one (and I suck at making slide bows...I take too long, and they end up looking angular and wonky).

...but I have something that I can use.

The purpose of changing the #1 upper return bow spacing (again) is to move the planes in which the #1 circuit exists - so that that the cimbasso gooseneck has room to exit the instrument's valve block.

This one thing may (??) have been the biggest obstacle to finishing this project...so maybe I did some "good", this afternoon.

It's dinnertime, I'm not feeling all that great (but am hungry). and need to re-pack my clothes and rest...
I'll be on the road (after being just back from being on the road for two days) every single day though the 13th (other than the 12th.

oem bow (too narrow) is on the top


oem bow (too narrow) is on the bottom


I DID remove some nasty dents from the oem bow, because it's the same leg spacing as some of the other slide bows on this valveset.

I could have actually used this contraption - were it completed - tonight.. I'm headed down into the delta to play the expanded Mozart version of the Messiah, and covering the third trombone part.

[bloke]

text in black is ON topic:
------------------------------

Getting older is weird.

All I did today was drive to a town (city) after breakfast (about 1-1/2 hours away...it was raining, but whatever), read some Christmas quintets at one old folks home, eat a nice *barbecue lunch, play (having played the tunes once, now: no longer "reading") quintets at yet another old folks home, and then drive back home in the rain.

I got home, found that I was falling-on-my-face exhausted, crawled into bed, and conked out for two hours.

Mrs. bloke just woke me up with a nice little dinner...but I just don't know if I have enough energy to go out to the shop tonight and (at least) see if I can get this #1 circuit (should NOT be a difficult task!) stuck together and (reconfigured with this new upper return bow) out of the way (allowing for a triggered main slide - heading straight up) of the entrance port to the #1 casing.

I've got a BAC (bigasscoffee) here, so maybe (??) I'll get out there.

Pictures, if I succeed...

also: These people in these homes need visitors, they need stimulation, and they need their routines broken up.
Whether paid or not, think about doing stuff at these places.
If I'm asked to do something like this (and sure, I'll accept a check for doing it, if some organization is offering to underwrite it) whether or not for pay, I'll try my best to say "yes". Today, one of the folks we encountered was a gentleman who (probably seven decades ago - ??) had been in the Philadelphia Boys Choir https://www.phillyboyschoir.org , and MOST of these people have fascinating stories to tell, if someone is ALSO willing to stay and chat, after entertaining the people.
...I recall (several years ago) when my 90-several year-old aunt was in a home in Atlanta, was wheelchair-bound, and wasn't expected to live much longer, a bunch of us made a trip there to see her (along with all of her own children - who were/are all still nearby). She was thought to have been "losing it" (forgetful/unaware/etc.), but the simulation of having us all there completely "woke her up", she was complete lucid, was "current" (aware of the date/events/etc.), and absolutely turned on as if a light bulb with a switch.
_______________________________
*an amazing place that is set up cafeteria-style with a large seating area, FIRST you encounter frozen meats, NEXT you encounter a butcher with fresh meats, and FINALLY you reach the area with ready-to-eat barbecue, ribs, chicken, roast beef, other meats, hot-and-cold vegetables, desserts, breads, and drinks...ie. unique...
HERE: https://www.paullathamsmeatco.com/barebeque

[bloke]

OK...
I DID get this done, but didn't feel like screwing around here, last night (taking, posting pictures, and typing crap about them).

The issue - again - was that the #1 circuit's geometry blocked the ability to EITHER come straight up (from the valve block) with a triggered/fine-tuning main slide OR EVEN a cimbasso-style gooseneck (with no slide in front of it).
It ONLY was designed (duh) to allow for a mouthpipe tube to exit the valve block and wrap around a baritone horn bell.

As seen, I did my best (uh...) to make a new WIDER upper return bow, and (then - per this post) was able to ROTATE the circuit UP and AWAY from the valve block's front-end exit port.

As I bought this King .562" bore 4-valve baritone for a song, there was a ton of damage (though good valves and many repairable parts).
The ONLY slide tube that I did NOT un-solder needed to be coaxed back to (either) where it was originally (or) up to where it SHOULD HAVE been positioned (sloppy oem assembly...??) originally.

That having been done (along with other alignment/denting issues) I began assembly. The lower #1 slide (as one might imagine) is now aligned much more nicely than before, and (also, as I installed a WIDER upper return bow) I SHORTENED the pairs of lower #1 slide tubes (to compensate).

I have NO IDEA whether I actually NEEDED to shorten the tuning slide tubes, because (just as with the F cimbasso that I built, and which - luckily - turned out to be an intonation walk-in-the-park) I will have NO way of play-testing this until it's nearly completed, so... (??)

[bloke]

Thank you for your loyalty and support, Mr. York-aholic.

[bloke]

Excited to see what happens next.

[bloke]

Excited to see what happens next.

The next part is kind of easy and boring... just replace crushed tuning slide tubes and repair dented slide bows.

that big upper loop (pictured) in the number #4 circuit:
Since they had them in stock, I just bought a replacement one of those.. too time consuming to remove all those dents.

This thing is obviously going to need some pretty serious reinforcement; there's no baritone horn body to hold it all together.

[bloke]

I'm tired from driving back last night after a dress rehearsal and two Christmas shows, so I think I'm honestly going to continue to lay down for a while after breakfast... and I have a trumpet player showing up at 2:00 for me to do some repairs and cleaning on an ancient tuning in the Bell Schilke as well as me myself having another Christmas show to play tonight in another city, but I'm going to see about maybe spending at least two or three more hours before 2:00 on rudimentary repairs on this valve section today.
The sooner I get this contraption built, the sooner I can start learning how to play it.

Something positive is that the concert last night was live streamed, recorded, and hosted on YouTube, and I really like what I hear out of that new-to-me Miraphone model 98. There've been a few other recordings of it in performances to which I've had access, but those have just been done with tablet microphones.

[bloke]

I actually nearly completed unsmashing and rebuilding the #3 circuit on this valveset last night, but I decided to get too picky with the upper slide alignment, so I'm going to have to go back to it. I think for the next couple of days I'm going to either be repairing other people's stuff or vacuuming and sorting out little piles of crap all over the house before people come for Christmas.

I'm hoping that the 4th circuit ends up being pretty easy, because I'm replacing a large portion of it with brand new parts. Time will tell. Once I get this valveset in good order, I can then finally start putting stuff onto it which it needs to become a cimbasso-like instrument. I have discovered already that I'm going to need to tilt the angle clockwise to the right at about 30° to 45° in order for this thing to be comfortable to hold and play. It might look a little odd like that, but the thing needs to be able to be played comfortably.