Relative worth of high price horns

[The Big Ben]

All good...!
I agree that pros do maybe switch main horns more than they used to. I think maybe players in general do?
My wife plays cello and she and her string-colleagues do not, as a rule, change instruments, but her cello is worth way more than my combined instruments...

When evaluating costs of tubas for orchestra use, I consider the cost of the instruments used by the string people we sit behind. $30K for a Yamayork IS a lot of money but, when compared with a top line violin, viola or cello, $30K is almost where the prices begin.

[Mark]

compared with a top line violin, viola or cello, $30K is almost where the prices begin.

You can spend $30k on a violin bow. But the comparison is apples to oranges with prices for tubas and violins.

[YorkNumber3.0]

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[Stryk]

I guess it depends on what you do with it. For what I do, all I NEED is a Chinese 186 clone. I play in church on Sundays at a quasi mega-church (televised, streamed, etc), and play in our community band. If I played in a major symphony, I would NEED something much better. For someone who makes 80k a year playing, a one time investment of 40k is not out of the question. So, for them, it would be worth it. Ask a mechanic sometime what they have invested in tools, it may surprise you.

[matt g]

I think they have diminished- I also think those that have the German/Swiss-made horns are holding onto them more now than in the past. 4 years ago, you'd see 4 Thors on the used market, a bunch of Pt-6P's, etc. Now, with all the Chinese tubas, you don't see all that many European makes.

Upon resurvey of this thread, I picked up on this blurb as being potentially interesting.

The Chinese copies of existing tubas are increasing in quality. That’s known.

However, the one thing the European horns offered for years was R&D and experimentation. You mention the Thor, and that’s a good example. The original rotor 2155, then the redesigned piston 2155 (which saw redesigns), the 2000, the Thor, the rotary version of the Thor, etc. is a great example of the evolution of an idea. This evolution also inspired turnover in the tuba playing community when these changes made playing easier for someone.

I don’t see the Chinese factories being at this stage of development. They are still in the stages of becoming competent in building copies. Maybe soon they begin in depth experimentation and R&D with tuba construction?

Anyhow, I think people holding on to tubas is partly due to nothing really novel being sold because of the rise in cheap clones coupled with the notion that people are maybe a bit more conservative with their spending over the last three years and/or aren’t willing to drive and trial tubas that someone else just drooled into.

[JRaymo]

I wonder how they can legally steal tech and designs like they do. Also what is the life expectancy of these cheaply made copies? An acquaintance of mine had developed a student model French horn. He was working with one of the factories in China. This is 20 years ago when this took place. At that time he was having terrible quality problems from them. He visited the factory and they were so strict with the amount of solder they would allow them to use they would cut it into small individual pieces and that’s all they could get to use per joint.

I’m sure it’s better now but will these copies be playing 20 years later or will they need to be replaced every few years because it might be cheaper to buy a new one than try to rebuild one.


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[bloke]

We have seen what has happened with resellers on one Europe-based country's products...
...in order to reduce end user pricing, obviously to be able to compete better.

[Grumpikins]

A personal note on people holding onto horns. My primary horn is meinl weston 2145. Little brother to the 2155 mentioned above. I have considered selling it several times. BUT when i play it, i feel like I'm falling in love every time. I bought it used at dillon 21 years ago. And the previous owner had made several modifications. Then, i was working my way to be a teacher/quasi professional. Now, im a machinist/returning amateur. This horn is way more than i need for what i play now. BUT, I will not sell it because it is amazing (to me anyway). Also, im kind of a hoarder. Of certain things.

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[Breavdah]

Gotta love these posts "I would like to sell my Chinese tuba with major dents for the value of TWO okay used cars. OR: trade for an MW!"

[JRaymo]

A personal note on people holding onto horns. My primary horn is meinl weston 2145. Little brother to the 2155 mentioned above. I have considered selling it several times. BUT when i play it, i feel like I'm falling in love every time. I bought it used at dillon 21 years ago. And the previous owner had made several modifications. Then, i was working my way to be a teacher/quasi professional. Now, im a machinist/returning amateur. This horn is way more than i need for what i play now. BUT, I will not sell it because it is amazing (to me anyway). Also, im kind of a hoarder. Of certain things.

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I hear ya,

I sold all my stuff when I started a family except my Willson Eb. 15 years later I’ve replaced my beloved King Eb sousaphone I’ve been missing ever since. I’m just a recreational player now but did a lot of playing 20+ years ago. My daughter will be stuck selling all this stuff when I’m gone.


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[tokuno]

All good...!
I agree that pros do maybe switch main horns more than they used to. I think maybe players in general do?
My wife plays cello and she and her string-colleagues do not, as a rule, change instruments, but her cello is worth way more than my combined instruments...

Seems like "bow shopping" is the violist's equivalent of "horn shopping". At least, I hope so. My wife's bow is alone worth more than some of my horns, so I'm glad she doesn't jones for new violas like I do for brass instruments . . . my wallet is super glad that none of my kids chose strings.
Back late 70/early 80-ish, my running-buddy high school friend's dad bought him a $30K+ cello. He's made a nice career for himself since as a professional orchestral cellist, but at the time . . . zow. Helped me appreciate the price I'd paid for what I'd previously thought was an exorbitantly expensive Yamaha YEP-321s.

[bloke]

That's why I continue to say that even though I really don't have a jones at all for a York style 6/4 C tuba, but - if I was coerced into owning and playing one - I would figure out how to buy the Yamaha one, because it's the easiest one to play... and it's still cheaper than a good fiddle.

[Mary Ann]

Is that the Yamaha 822, or is there a bigger one yet?

[Mary Ann]

Is that the Yamaha 822, or is there a bigger one yet?

YCB-822 = 4/4 CC
YCB-826 = 6/4 CC

[JRaymo]

The 822 appears to be it on the web site. They do not refer to it as the “yamayork” though.


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[JRaymo]

Is that the Yamaha 822, or is there a bigger one yet?

YCB-822 = 4/4 CC
YCB-826 = 6/4 CC

I stand corrected. I did not see the 826 on the web site.


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[Mary Ann]

The Eastman I played at the local music store, the salesman (who said he was a tuba player) said it was the York-like model. Would that make it a 6/4? It was pretty huge but was quite easy to play if I had a sherpa to haul it around. Air supply, I wouldn't know in a practice room.

[bloke]

The Eastman I played at the local music store, the salesman (who said he was a tuba player) said it was the York-like model. Would that make it a 6/4? It was pretty huge but was quite easy to play if I had a sherpa to haul it around. Air supply, I wouldn't know in a practice room.

York and Holton cranked out a whole bunch more 19 inch bell, much shorter stature, and much smaller bore B-flat and E-flat models (which featured the same bell - and both top action and front action versions of each) than they did huge 6/4 instruments, and this would pertain to the entire history of both companies.

[arpthark]

The Eastman I played at the local music store, the salesman (who said he was a tuba player) said it was the York-like model. Would that make it a 6/4? It was pretty huge but was quite easy to play if I had a sherpa to haul it around. Air supply, I wouldn't know in a practice room.

The ECB-832 is “York” like in wrap and valve layout. Like @bloke mentions above, York/Holton (and Conn/Beuscher) made a bunch of tubas a hundred years ago that have a similar bugle taper.

The 4/4 Eastman uses a 0.689” bore, so it’s a pretty efficient tuba. I doubt it’s stuffy though since the very similar ECB-632 would be fairly free blowing.

[bloke]

not to nitpick but to clarify...more specifically: Holton/York, as the bows and bells on those two makers' 19" bell 4/4 instruments are just about interchangeable...and those are the ones which seem to have been copied.

If someone offered me a bargain price on one of those 4/4 York bells, I suppose I could (in the eyes of some) "upgrade" my Holton to a York...as it should fit perfectly...but there are too many solder joints to undo/redo, there's no point in it, and my mouthpipe would cut right through the middle of the York engraving (so as to be too obvious an example of a frankenhorn).