Bass trombone - is beauty possible?

[bloke]

This is really "out there" on the fringe - as far as a topical post is concerned, but it occurs to me that the brass band English baritones used to be half inch bore and 8-in bell. Now, they are about the same bore size as a large bore tenor, and feature 9-1/2-in bells...

... so if someone stuck a large bore tenor slide onto a bass trombone bell section, how different should they expect that to sound from a modern brass band baritone?

[bone-a-phone]

... if someone stuck a large bore tenor slide onto a bass trombone bell section, how different should they expect that to sound from a modern brass band baritone?

Conn large tenors and basses use the same slide tenon, so you can put an 88h slide on a 72h without any modifications. Of course it would be out of tune because the 72h slide is a bit longer than the 88h slide. It would articulate more clearly than the full bass, and the sound might be "less slide euphonium-ish". More importantly it would use less air.

I've been using a (Holton tr159) bone with a tenor top slide and a bass bottom slide, plus a single valve, and bell that's between tenor and bass, with a tweener mouthpiece (2G). For me, this gives a characteristic trombone sound, makes the entire range of the instrument available and sounds good. There are people who play small tenors and can blat out pedal F. So you don't need the big equipment for low range. You need it for that "sound fog" sound. The problem with the bass trombone is that "they", whoever they are, are trying to get a conical sound out of a cylindrical instrument. They ought to just admit it and start making F bass baritones (skinny F tubas).

100 years ago they made G and F bass trombones with no valves and a 525 slide (which is considered medium bore tenor today).

Bass bone is an ergonomic nightmare, and with all of the adjusted positions for open slide, 1st valve, 2nd valve and 1&2 valves, it's a real chore to play in tune, especially for anyone who hasn't dedicated years to developing the muscle memory for 4 sets of positions. I'd sacrifice the slide for some simplified intonation, improved ergonomics and a more characteristic sound, but I'd want the main tuning slide to be the one you push and pull instead of a valve slide.

Back on the main topic, to me "beauty" is really about melody, although harmony can also be beautiful. Melody is difficult if you can't make phrases. Phrases without enough air for continuity is unlikely. Unless you're George Roberts.There may be some people like that, but the "fat part of the curve" finds it easier to just blat than to be beautiful. I personally believe the proportions of the instrument have grown beyond what most people can handle musically.

[donn]

Yeah, it's like tubas with large valve bores. Most people just can't play them well. (Ha ha.)

It isn't just George Roberts. There are examples all over, bass trombone players who manage to work with the instrument and produce something incontestably musical.

Ergonomic problems, for sure. That would be one good reason for bass trombone players to stand up to whatever evil cabal of directors and arrangers is handing down all those low Bs and whatever else apparently necessitates a 2nd valve. I understand there's a way to produce something akin to a false tone on the trombone, and maybe a widespread insistence on this practice would lead arrangers to find alternatives to that note.

But impossible to play lyrically on a .562 bore? People are doing it. Maybe it's time to look for a better leadpipe or something.

[Bob Kolada]

... if someone stuck a large bore tenor slide onto a bass trombone bell section, how different should they expect that to sound from a modern brass band baritone?

Conn large tenors and basses use the same slide tenon, so you can put an 88h slide on a 72h without any modifications. Of course it would be out of tune because the 72h slide is a bit longer than the 88h slide. It would articulate more clearly than the full bass, and the sound might be "less slide euphonium-ish". More importantly it would use less air.

I've been using a (Holton tr159) bone with a tenor top slide and a bass bottom slide, plus a single valve, and bell that's between tenor and bass, with a tweener mouthpiece (2G). For me, this gives a characteristic trombone sound, makes the entire range of the instrument available and sounds good. There are people who play small tenors and can blat out pedal F. So you don't need the big equipment for low range. You need it for that "sound fog" sound. The problem with the bass trombone is that "they", whoever they are, are trying to get a conical sound out of a cylindrical instrument. They ought to just admit it and start making F bass baritones (skinny F tubas).

100 years ago they made G and F bass trombones with no valves and a 525 slide (which is considered medium bore tenor today).

Bass bone is an ergonomic nightmare, and with all of the adjusted positions for open slide, 1st valve, 2nd valve and 1&2 valves, it's a real chore to play in tune, especially for anyone who hasn't dedicated years to developing the muscle memory for 4 sets of positions. I'd sacrifice the slide for some simplified intonation, improved ergonomics and a more characteristic sound, but I'd want the main tuning slide to be the one you push and pull instead of a valve slide.

Back on the main topic, to me "beauty" is really about melody, although harmony can also be beautiful. Melody is difficult if you can't make phrases. Phrases without enough air for continuity is unlikely. Unless you're George Roberts.There may be some people like that, but the "fat part of the curve" finds it easier to just blat than to be beautiful. I personally believe the proportions of the instrument have grown beyond what most people can handle musically.

iirc the straight G basses were sub .500, I think the G/D basses were around .525 in the slide.
I'd love an F bass baritone, something with more body than a cimbasso and leaner than a bass tuba. I wonder how those half sized F tubas for European kids and cavalry bands play. I saw a Yamaha 321 euph body for sale a few years ago, seemed like it could be the bones for an interesting project. Tony what's his name has a G tuba made out of a marching euph bugle thing.