Petrushka horn selection

[MikeMason]

F for the solo/ c for everything else? F for everything? C for everything? Big b flat for everything but solo on f? Euphonium for the solo? I have the big fat Euph like bloke has.For those who have performed it(1947 version) any thoughts? A month away for me.

[bloke]

I think it would be tons of fun to cover it with the PARTICULAR make/model of euphonium that (almost no one, but) you and I own...
...but I suspect - on this particular piece - we would find ourselves "outgunned" (rest of the piece), by modern "cannon" tenor/bass trombones, and even modern clarinets and their mouthpieces (as the solo is not really a solo, but is a clarinet/tuba duet) put out TONS more sound than clarinets of over a century ago, as the evolution of just about every single type of instrument has been towards an increase in volume/decibels/loudness.



Just so others understand a little bit more...
Mike's and my euphoniums' bells (not just their rim diameters or throat sizes - but their entire bell profiles) are extraordinarily large.
Notice the picture of the Wick mute's UNTRIMMED corks (using the mute as an improvised lower bell profile measuring gauge), and then take a look at the picture whereby this mute comes within a mere inch of bottoming out in the bell. In this respect (and particularly since - when someone takes a close look at this model, figures out what's what - this model of euphonium can be played in tune without a main slide trigger), this particular model of B-flat compensating euphonium - arguably - comes closer than most any other, as far as imitating the profile of of a pre-1960's-use traditional tuba français en ut.





I'd bring my F tuba - and would plan to use it, as always - but it WOULD be fun to TRY the huge euphonium, at least on the tuba/clarinet duet.

[russiantuba]

I would do the solo on my CC. I’d consider other parts on F. Okay, I’m weird, but the sound and “anger” of the bear I feel warrants the sound of a contrabass tuba.

Editing to clarify that I was referring to the 1947 edition.

[YorkNumber3.0]

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[bloke]

D is a safe pitch on either length of good bass tubas and a bit risky on either length of many contrabass tubas. As much as we can discuss esoterica of timbre and its effect, misplaced attacks/pitches completely distract from and overrule any of that, yes...??...or maybe...??

I'm sure Don would add a half tone extension to his E flat tuba to play this excerpt.

[UncleBeer]

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[LargeTuba]

I thought the bear solo called for the biggest tuba available?

[UncleBeer]

I thought the bear solo called for the biggest tuba available?

No. It was written for the Ballet Russe in Paris, using Parisian musicians. It would most certainly have been intended for French tuba.

[bloke]

Earlier 20th century French tuba parts often ask for pitches covering much of the entire tuba players' range, and this is a dead giveaway that they were written for the very stubby/mega-cylindrical extensions French C tuba (as shown above)... and I might be confused about the octave notation, but it might actually have been a "c" tuba. The low range isn't going to sound very good UNLESS the player is very good and can supply a nice pure vibration into the mouthpiece. Carl has demonstrated that by playing the low range very well.

I've been using my very large bore (4th valve is about the same bore size as an Olds O-99 BB flat tuba), very large bell B-flat compensating euphonium to play more and more ophicleide and French tuba parts. When parts descend down into the multiple ledger line range below the staff, I have an Elliott contrabass trombone *mouthpiece that works quite well in that range on the euphonium - yet also allows me to play several ledger lines above the staff with good security, focus, and intonation...
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me personally. ..??
With tubas of all four common lengths that I actively use, a compensating euphonium, a valve trombone, and F cimbasso
with different fingerings than my f tuba, and (soon) a six valve B flat bass trombone cimbasso, I think I already have enough stuff to play, without taking on the French tuba at age 66. I'm sure I'd be long dead before I really mastered it.
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*Somewhere on the internet - probably a hidden/private YouTube video - is a recording of me playing the 5th part of the Dahl brass piece. It goes very low and very high - much like a French tuba apart would, but it was probably written for bass trombone in mind. For what it's worth, I used that mouthpiece to play that piece... and the euphonium that I had at that time wasn't as large as the one that I have now.

[Snake Charmer]

I thought the bear solo called for the biggest tuba available?

"Mr. Stravinski, which instrument was on your mind for the Bear Solo in Petrushka?"
---"The French C Tuba of course"

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[bloke]

Something else...

Composers think about their compositions.

Conductors think about their hair, clothing, how they swing their buttocks in front of the patrons, and their facial expressions (if on camera).

Neither spend any time considering the size-and-shape of tubas...

If any of them do, they are in a percentage that couldn't be represented visually on a graph.

I doubt that Stravinsky dwelled all that much on tubas OTHER THAN he wanted to hear his tuba parts PLAYED and PLAYED WELL by something that sounded like SOME SORT of tuba.
Yes...He surely knew/suspected/or-something that those funny grande barytons Français en ut could play higher with more security than central/eastern European kaiser contrabass b-tubas, but if players showed up (as surely happened endless times throughout his life of conducting his works throughout the world) with some other sizes/shapes of "tubas", I couldn't imagine Stravinsky ordering them off the stage - unless they were completely unable to play his written parts.

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NEXT TIME (IF in my OWN orchestra) I play this, it would be instructive to have someone (whose taste/ears I trust, and who would not "listen with their eyes") to A/B the F tuba vs. my very large-belled compensating B-flat euphonium (judging quantity of sound output and "bear-ness")...
...but were I playing this solo (subbing in SOMEONE'S ELSE orchestra - as I've done before), I would (again) play it on F tuba - as that's what's expected in American (and probably most) orchestras...and - as a sub - I'm not there to make any new-guy statements. Rather, I'm there to fit in.

[UncleBeer]

Conductors think about their hair, clothing, how they swing their buttocks in front of the patrons, and their facial expressions (if on camera).

Neither spend any time considering the size-and-shape of tubas...

Supposedly this is part of what led to the demise of the French tuba: Knappertbusch conducting the Ring cycle at the Paris Opera in 1959, asking tubist Jean-Baptiste Marie to bring a BBb tuba instead of his French tuba. Tubist resisted, but ultimately relented when management offered him a 75% pay raise. Other French orchestras heard of this and renegotiated their tubists' contracts, compelling them to play larger instruments as well.

As is said in showbiz circles: Ain't no business, ain't no show.

[Matt Good]

Conductors think about their hair, clothing, how they swing their buttocks in front of the patrons, and their facial expressions (if on camera).

Neither spend any time considering the size-and-shape of tubas...

If any of them do, they are in a percentage that couldn't be represented visually on a graph.

Yes on this.

I have never had a conductor question what tuba I'm using and I would never engage in a conversation about my choice of instrument as I try to keep the tuba a deep, dark mystery. To be truthful, I never talk to conductors. This is why I opt for using stairwells over elevators in our hall.

With that said, I would choose a piece of equipment that I know I can consistently play the bear solo perfectly and that has always been a rotary valve F tuba. I do not have the luxury of experimentation since I may have only two chances to perform this solo before the concert. It has to sound like it's the concert on the first rehearsal and I never want the conductor to think I'm a liability during the course of week's concerts.

[bloke]

LOL...
For for a few years, I tried to keep my distance from one of my music directors, just as I do from the rest of them (misc per-service orchestras).. but - dang it - they kept reaching out to me, and kept on and kept on and kept on. I'm still not completely certain how to deal with this friendship, but it's a thing... and they and I are the most unlikely of friends, even were it that they were not my music director, which - like Matt - I consider friendships (or even casual chatting) with bosses to be taboo... I'm not even particularly fond of casual conversations with personnel managers.

They live elsewhere, and have to rent a car. The way car rentals work, short-term rentals would actually cost them more per year than annual car rentals, and either one would cost them a fortune. I have a reliable 20 year old "fishing car" (southern term for "old spare car that runs") needs to be kept maintained and driven - elsewise it would rust away. Mrs bloke and I decided to loan him that car in exchange for him driving it, maintaining it, insuring it, licensing it, and he's kept it in better condition than we would have ourselves. LOL it's turned out to be a great deal for both of us.
Maybe (??) the fact that I've got this over him helps keep a throttle on this odd friendship, as I could imagine that a friendship with anyone as impetuous and single-minded as a (typical) music director could easily turn into something detrimental.

I'm not going to second guess Matt, but I'm still wondering if he's giving music directors more credit than they deserve, regarding noticing a particular tuba being played. There have been a few times when I've scratched my head looking at a part to a symphony, overture, or concerto. I played through it during the first rehearsal with one instrument, the second with another, and I might even go back to the first one for the concert. A correct guess - that some might consider completely wrong - was to only bring my F tuba with me a year or so ago to rehearse/perform the "Organ" Symphony. I'm sure that a bigger tuba's resonance would have been absorbed by the organ's, rather than having been heard along with the organ. By the way, the correct answer for that Prokofiev piano concerto poll: F tuba.

[JC2]

I was told this story from someone of high standing in the tuba community. Roger Bobo asked Stravinsky which Tuba he wanted and got the following matter of fact reply.
'Bb Tuba' (recalled imitating Stravinsky's strong Russian accent)

My take from this story is that it's not supposed to sound easy. Stravinsky wanted it to be uncomfortable and raucous.

[bloke]

I was told this story from someone of high standing in the tuba community. Roger Bobo asked Stravinsky which Tuba he wanted and got the following matter of fact reply.
'Bb Tuba' (recalled imitating Stravinsky's strong Russian accent)

My take from this story is that it's not supposed to sound easy. Stravinsky wanted it to be uncomfortable and raucous.

Yeah, Stravinsky wrote the bassoon solo at the beginning of Rite of Spring intentionally to make it sound awkward, difficult and perhaps even laden with poor attacks and mistakes, but that's not very considerate to the musicians performing. Obviously, that solo would have worked quite well on the English horn. Musicians don't like to be treated in that manner, and that strategy doesn't work, because - given *just a little bit of time - they will completely master such solos so that they sound well executed and not awkward, struggling, nor strained.

To this attitude of Stravinsky's, I might have told him to his face to go f off (though I wouldn't have asked him in the first place, just as Matt Good would not have, and thus wouldn't have received an answer I did not like) and if someone is to be set up intentionally to look like a dolt, or jackass, or an incompetent boob, it should be he himself who sets himself up for such a situation.
...ie. "When you deliver these flowers to my girlfriend - who lives on a 500-year-old narrow cobblestone curved street in a small town in Wales, please take them to her driving an American 18-wheeler", etc.
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*as that particular solo probably single-handedly pushed for the common appearance of the high e key on professionally-played bassoons

[Bob Kolada]

Bloke and Mike, what's this mega-euph you guys are talking about? I thought the B&S euphs were the VMI euphs, ie just regular non comp 4 valve horns.

[bloke]

Bloke and Mike, what's this mega-euph you guys are talking about? I thought the B&S euphs were the VMI euphs, ie just regular non comp 4 valve horns.

...the generally unpopular Meinl-Weston models - which are dismissed by many as playing badly out of tune.
Truth be told, some mechanical design features do encourage them to be played out of tune, but those goofs in design are pretty easy to address, and a couple of other design oddities (namely: shortish 1-2-3 valve slides) which are easy to ignore, if one pays attention to their ears - rather than where it "looks like" slides should be set.
Mine features absolutely no main tuning slide gadget thing, and can easily be played in tune by playing the two lower G-naturals with the third valve, and - when it's really important - mashing down the #3 button along with #1 when playing the upper E-flat...
... no other lipping nor alternates, but I DID change some things on the instrument. At the risk of sounding snobbish or even defensive, I don't sit in town bands with three or four other euphonium players playing this thing, but have used it several times in lower and higher paying per-service orchestras, to cover either parts with that odd "tenor tuba" designation, or simply to play wildly high/exposed passages inserted by various composing and arranging idiots into otherwise fairly well written tuba parts...Due to the music that I'm handed routinely, I also use it annually at a pair of very well-paying Christmas and Easter jobs. Yes, I'm stating that - with some "new" music that I'm handed to play in symphony orchestras, I set my tuba down, pick this thing up, and play stuff that's - arguably - way too high to be wisely/practically found in a tuba part. I also use it for early 19th century parts originally written for ophicleide, whereby - with the big bell - it sounds "big" enough - played alongside modern instruments - so as to not have to squeak out those parts on my f tuba.

...sorry that this ended up sounding somewhat defensive, preachy, and high-horsey... I don't even own a horse.

[Mark E. Chachich]

Roger Bobo asked Stravinsky which Tuba he wanted and got the following matter of fact reply.
'Bb Tuba'

Connie Weldon asked Stravinsky the same question and got the same answer.
Connie was my teacher at the University of Miami.

best,
Mark

[bloke]

... which is what he said several decades after he wrote the piece - knowing originally that it would be played on an 8-ft French C tuba.
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Again, the mistake is to ask, regardless of the gravitas of the player, composer, or conductor.

"Hey Igor, should I play this introductory super high bassoon solo with an instrument with high d and e keys, or one without?"
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" without, of course. I want it to sound as though you are struggling, can barely play it, and are playing it with a crude or inadequate instrument... After all, it will be YOU (not me) playing it, and I'll only be standing on a podium up in front of you - waiting for you to play it."