Converting clockspring rotory paddles to regular spring paddles

[rodgeman]

Hi All,

I have an older Cerveny 601 Kaiser tuba with clocksprings on the finger paddles. All the dents are out of it. it has some repair scarring. Lacquer is 50%.

Is it worth converting to regular springs on the paddles?

Does anyone have the bridge, paddles, springs, and arms from a Miraphone or Cerveny they might sell?

Thanks for looking.

[Rick Denney]

I actually prefer the clocksprings myself. They are more linear and some are even adjustable. They do need to be maintained just like anything.

If you have them and they work, I think you’ll find that converting to open springs will be expensive and will not change your life for the better.

Rick “who has owned a couple of tubas with clocksprings” Denney

[bloke]

I never studied his pictures closely, but quite a few years ago I think Dan Schultz put up some stuff about converting some linkage with busted clock springs to wire springs, and reusing and converting the original parts.

What Rick says is true, but most of them are really quite old and there's often considerable sideways rattle in those tapered square fixtures that support them.
Technically speaking, wire springs are adjustable as well, but only from softer to harder. That having been said, it's really quite easy to replace a wire spring - that is over tensioned - with a new one and start over on the adjustment.

So often, different systems (most anything) offer advantages and trade-offs.

My own biases:
When I see an old tuba for sale with clock spring linkage and don't know how old it is, I sort of automatically assume that the rotors may be worn. If it also looks like a particularly shiny tuba, that's an additional red flag for me.

[bort2.0]

If it also looks like a particularly shiny tuba, that's an additional red flag for me.

Hrmm... why?

Shiny and old -- to me -- suggests that whoever bought it ended up not using it for some reason. Perhaps because it wasn't very good, or perhaps because they owned something else that they used instead. But I wouldn't necessarily attribute "shiny and old" with worn out valves.

Unless it was completely overhauled. Then I'd be concerned that it had the crap buffed out of it, and the valves are who-knows-but-probably-okay?

[Rick Denney]

Clocksprings haven’t been used in about 50 years so they are all at least that old. Any tuba used a lot for that long is subject to wear issues, and that figures into a buying decision.

But the OP already owns his instrument and is not asking about valve wear.

The clocksprings I’ve owned were old, smooth, and silent. I never tried to measure play because of that—they just worked. Not so the rest of the linkages, which I replaced.

Rick “who still wouldn’t replace them if they worked” Denney

[bloke]

Clocksprings haven’t been used in about 50 years so they are all at least that old. Any tuba used a lot for that long is subject to wear issues, and that figures into a buying decision.

But the OP already owns his instrument and is not asking about valve wear.

The clocksprings I’ve owned were old, smooth, and silent. I never tried to measure play because of that—they just worked. Not so the rest of the linkages, which I replaced.

Rick “who still wouldn’t replace them if they worked” Denney

What I was thinking of was that c. '70's - '80's B&S F tuba (specifically, and not some B-flat that was used in a German marching band) linkage - such as yours - is likely to be in better condition than the typical 1910's - 1960's clockspring linkage seen on a typical eBay or fb for-sale tuba...

...and that the clockspring linkage on this person's tuba might be in more typical condition...thus, a conversion (as clockspring rebuilds are seriously tedious).

[rodgeman]

Thank you for the replies.

My issue is that there is play in the clocksprings and they occasionally stick. The only shop here that can adjust them has advised they had too much side to side play and would need to be replaced at some point.

I was looking to see if it was worth it to do this and if anyone had any parts they had taken off that I could purchase. It would be too expensive for me to buy new parts from Miraphone and I do not know is Cerveny sells them.

I am also on the lookout for parts from a horn that is not playable.

Thanks for taking the time to give me some ideas.

[the elephant]

Clockspring cases pop open from one side. Tap the square axle and it will drive out the opposite face. The clockspring itself is held in place to the outer wall of the case by a "tooth" that grabs a hole in the end of the spring, and the other end is a folded tab that hooks around the shaft. Tension is controlled via the number of winds made to the specific length of the flat spring steel ribbon. It can also be adjusted using heat, but if you do not know how to do this exactly you will end up with a useless spring strip.

Taking a set to an actual clock maker can get you four replacement springs of the correct length and spring rate, installed into the cases and closed up. (Usually, you have to show them how to open the case, but closing it back up is quite simple.)

This sort of work is usually worth the expense if you can get the maker to nail the spring rate needed for tuba valves. Taking them a tuba to "sample" is an easy way for them to learn what you need without you having to learn a lot of jargon and such. Just allow them to fool around with a "good" tuba rotary valve set, then allow them to do their thing. It is not cheap, because it is all hand work. The actual materials are not expensive, though.

I really like clocksprings when they have individual adjuster wheels, but those are harder to come by in usable shape. Otherwise, you can only adjust the tension by quarter turns (90º) at a time, and this can move from uselessly floppy to snapping the tab off of the spring, rendering the valve useless until it has been fixed.

I would not gut your old set to install spiral springs, as you would have to pay for custom-wound springs to fit in the space you have, which likely will not have adequate room for enough spirals to give you the tension you want. It will be a kludge, at best.

A better (and also not inexpensive) solution would be to purchase a complete set of spiral spring levers and have them mounted to your tuba. Save the clock spring set and maybe sell it off to pay for the new levers.

This is not what you wanted to hear — I know. Sorry about that. But I hate to see old stuff trashed to modify it for a modern application. Someone out there will want these. And — sorry guys — spiral springs that actually fit on clockspring cases look really stupid. Instead of trying to force one design to function as a completely different design, I would fix the original design to function like new, or wholesale replace it with what you actually want.

Best of luck, whatever you end up doing. Please come back with photos of the end result for all of us to gawp at. Horn Porn of custom work is *always* sui generis and fun to peruse.

[bloke]

Prior to replacing that stuff, you might look to see if you can straighten any of the support arms to eliminate any binding that might be occurring which might cause the sticking. Those support arms are considerably easier to bend (possible old accidents) than those which support wire sprung carriage rods.
If you discover any mushing in of those support arms and straighten them, it might correct some geometry issues that are causing your S arms to bind in the stop arm slots. Anyway, it's worth a look.

[the elephant]

Postscript…

If these are Miraphone clocksprings, and you decide to replace them with a more modern spiral spring system, AND you end up wanting to sell the old lever system, hit me up. I might not have the $$$ at the moment, but I will always be interested in the parts. (Read: If I have the money I will buy them sight unseen if the set is complete. If I don't I will try to raise the funds and will buy them later if they are still available.)

[rodgeman]

Thanks for the updates.

These are Cerveny clocksprings - not Miraphone.

My thought is to replace the whole bridge and arms. I don't want to disassemble it.

Mike Nye repair adjusted the levers and advised me to look for replacement parts.

I will get pictures of before and after.

[bloke]

If it's a model 681, Miraphone stuff can certainly be made to fit. On the epic-yet-economy Cerveny 681 restoration project I just completed, I was tempted to use some Miraphone stuff that I had sitting around here (used), but decided on something less valuable, based on the price for which I was selling the instrument - once restored.
Completely admitting my selfishness, had I restored it for myself, I would have used the Miraphone parts.

[rodgeman]

Just a quick update. The paddles are not sticking as much the more I play.

Still will be looking out for the parts to eventually do this. Thanks for all of the input.

[rodgeman]

I have put the tuba on consignment at Mike Nye's instrument repair since I had purchased the Eastman 562. I thought about keeping it but do not play enough and I hope someone else will enjoy it. I certainly did.

[bloke]

Congratulations on your wisdom to delay that project until you were sure whether you were going to keep the instrument. That's very wise.
With an instrument that I owned until a couple of years ago, I dragged my feet on some improvements in just the same way. I don't know if I was being a smart about it as were you, but it worked out for the best, and the next owner will make those decisions.

[LeMark]

By the way, in case y'all didn't realize, this is the tuba I bought. The valves are good, but the spatulas are SO CLOSE to the springs it makes for some short but interesting valve action.

Not sure a standard setup for wound springs would work on this thing. Not sure it's even worth messing with if I'm only using the horn for "long and loud" playing.

It's a good horn though. Much more nimble that the size would dictate, but it has intonation issues from Gb at the bottom of the staff to Db below that

The MTS stick I just installed will handle that