Opinions on NEW Cerveny?

[DonO.]

I played a Meinl Weston 25 for a really long time. However, that horn became problematic for me, and so I made a deal to trade it in for a Cerveny made Amati 481 at Tuba Exchange in the 80’s. Vince was still there of course. He had 6 in stock from a fresh shipment. I played all of them and picked the gem of the bunch, I thought. Technically it wasn’t a trade in, they didn’t do that, but he was happy to put my 25 on consignment and it sold quickly, so it seemed like a trade in. I played that Amati a lot, and when I decided to stop playing tuba, he consigned that for me too. I was sad, I loved that Amati, but tuba was in the rear view mirror for me.

Fast forward 30 or so years, I am a comeback player now and I am playing a King 2341 mostly. But I honestly miss that Amati. I now regret selling it. Instead of the King, I would have gladly bought an Amati or Cerveny just like I had, but a couple years ago they just weren’t available in the US. Now, Buckeye Brass in Ohio is the new importer for Cerveny branded tubas. Their web site shows a good variety of models. One I would be interested in is a 4 valve BBb 681 that seems a dead ringer for my old Amati, except for the paddle shape (mine had those rounded squareish keys, the new ones the more common teardrops). Also would like to try the BBb Piggy (!) and or the one they have that’s like the Arion. And the prices for a brand new horn with case included are very tempting. Really, they are priced in the same ball park as higher level Chinese made instruments (Eastman et al.).

To further confound things, Lee Stofer is importing the Lidl line, which has (rumor has it) some kind of “relationship” with Cerveny (made in same factory, perhaps?). But the Lidl instruments are a bit pricier, and judging by his web site he is only importing CC and F models. Additionally, I am much closer to Buckeye so a trip there is more feasible.

Any information about the “new” Cerveny tubas as carried by Buckeye would be appreciated. Reputation for quality? Construction? Intonation? Literally ANYTHING would be useful information. Anyone actually play them? Are they really Czech? Or “Chinese in disguise” (which would account for the too good to be true pricing)?

[bloke]

Lee tells me that the Czech products have been stepped up in quality.

I just brought an old 80's (arguably the "inexpensive" alternative pre-Chinese) Cerveny 681 "back from the dead" to sell to a church (documented in the repairs forum). About the only "cheap/crappy" thing about it (in my view) was the linkage...which (as half of it was missing and the other half was bent/broken) I replaced with NEW ("cheap/not-quite-as-crappy") Chinese linkage - to keep the price of the tuba low enough for the church to buy.

The rest of the tuba (having had a bunch of it apart) seemed "fine" to me, as far as materials/workmanship was concerned.

Yes, it was/is "thin", but thin and cheap are NOT synonyms. My Miraphone 98 is also thin. Arguably, it requires a little bit more craftsmanship to build a thin tuba than a moderate-thickness one.

specific models of Czech tubas and their playing/tuning/response/sonic characteristics:
I'm pretty ignorant, and those things are totally up to you to evaluate/remember/etc.

Your King is probably a damn-good tuba... (??)
NEW King tubas are a really good design and (as there are sometimes some build quality issues) I could see a really picky person removing the valveset, having the pistons rebuilt / slides aligned, sticking it back on the instrument, and that expenditure being "totally worth it".

[DonO.]

I played a "new" BBb cerveny at the tuba exchange booth at TMEA and was NOT impressed. It had a dull, lifeless sound. I'm not sure it was made Pre or post Lidl, but if that's the best they can do, the company is in trouble.

I would like to try a new piggy someday if I get a chance.

[bloke]

I played a "new" BBb cerveny at the tuba exchange booth at TMEA and was NOT impressed. It had a dull, lifeless sound. I'm not sure it was made Pre or post Lidl, but if that's the best they can do, the company is in trouble.

I would like to try a new piggy someday if I get a chance.

I've played enough old C "piggies" with a super-sharp second-space C (and people tell me that some of them don't feature that issue, which I have no reason to disbelieve), that I would like to toot on one that (perhaps) has been re-calculated with one of those cool "best taper for best tuning compromises" computer programs.

TO REITERATE:
I haven't played very many Cerveny models and (based on PDFs of catalogs) there were quite a few models offered.

[bisontuba]

Both Lidl and Cerveny will probably be on display at ITEC in Arizona through Lee Stofer and Buckeye Brass...play new ones and see how they are...

[DonO.]

Yeah, I know, my King really is a “damn good” tuba. And in my situation, it’s probably all the tuba I’ll need for the rest of my life. So why would I consider changing to a Cerveny? It’s the tone. For better or worse, I played European tubas for many years, and got used to what I think of as European tone. A tighter, more compact quality. When I first got my King, I was shocked at the big, broad, deep “American” tone I was able to get. This surprised me because the bore is smaller than I had been previously playing, .687 as opposed to .717 (if I recall correctly? I know it was over .7). But I’m sure it has to do with the design of the rest of the horn after the valve set. I wonder though if I would be happier with the European tone. I would have to A/B test them to know. And there’s the rotary valves. Again, I got used to them. Would I be happier with rotors? I don’t know. It’s been a long time. Funny thing, back in the day, my impression was that one didn’t switch from pistons to rotors because rotors were necessarily better- it was because the German horns were better and that’s the only way they came, so you had to get used to them. Of course I saw that change as the years go on. I’m certain the German/Czech/Swiss makers began offering piston valves because of the demand from the American market.

I don’t believe I’m thinking about this because I believe the Cerveny would be a “better” horn than the King. But it would be different! I guess you could say I have FOMO- fear of missing out. What, if anything, am I missing by having an American vs European horn?

Maybe I should have both! But I can’t justify having 3 BBb horns.

[DonO.]

Some of those Pre 1990 681 tubas can play better than miraphones. If you. See one before the paddle design change (round and curved) it can be a lot of tuba for the money

Unfortunately, cerveny and amati resale value has plummeted because of the build quality in the last 30 years. I paid more twice as much in 1989.for a 4 valve CC cerveny than I did in 2019.

[tubatodd]

This sounds like a damn fine tuba!

[cktuba]

Lee Stofer had one at SERTEC last year. It was very nice. Apparently there is now a CC version.

[bloke]

Yeah, I know, my King really is a “damn good” tuba. And in my situation, it’s probably all the tuba I’ll need for the rest of my life. So why would I consider changing to a Cerveny? It’s the tone. For better or worse, I played European tubas for many years, and got used to what I think of as European tone. A tighter, more compact quality. When I first got my King, I was shocked at the big, broad, deep “American” tone I was able to get. This surprised me because the bore is smaller than I had been previously playing, .687 as opposed to .717 (if I recall correctly? I know it was over .7). But I’m sure it has to do with the design of the rest of the horn after the valve set. I wonder though if I would be happier with the European tone. I would have to A/B test them to know. And there’s the rotary valves. Again, I got used to them. Would I be happier with rotors? I don’t know. It’s been a long time. Funny thing, back in the day, my impression was that one didn’t switch from pistons to rotors because rotors were necessarily better- it was because the German horns were better and that’s the only way they came, so you had to get used to them. Of course I saw that change as the years go on. I’m certain the German/Czech/Swiss makers began offering piston valves because of the demand from the American market.

I don’t believe I’m thinking about this because I believe the Cerveny would be a “better” horn than the King. But it would be different! I guess you could say I have FOMO- fear of missing out. What, if anything, am I missing by having an American vs European horn?

Maybe I should have both! But I can’t justify having 3 BBb horns.

I used "the search engine" to find Amati 481, and it sure looks really similar to Cerveny 681...which is what I just "brought back from the dead" (bell looks "really good", but I didn't put in an extra half hour of burnishing work on it to get it really smooth and "flat"), and sold to a church for a couple thousand bucks. If you find an old NOT-beat-up one, the rotors are likely to be "good", but you might (probably might) want to have someone to pull off the action arms and replace them with some that have sealed bearing links on both ends (or - at least DuBro links). The rotors (on this smashed up one) didn't even need any bearing rebuilding, and (actually) didn't need a chem-clean, either.





I tend to wonder if the 481 and 681 are sorta like the Miraphone 186 vs. the Miraphone 186S (ie. the 481 is a plainer version with less-or-no nickel silver...??)

[bloke]

Wasn’t that the scheme with Cerveny?

7xx was something like gold brass bell
8xx was something like all gold brass

Maybe 6xx is yellow brass with nickel silver slides and 4xx is yellow brass everything?

[bloke]

IF you buy this thing from this lady (in sweet condition), you have to GIVE me the case (with the busted wheels) as a FINDERS FEE !!!
...9 hours straight west of you - all 4-lane...oh yeah: and you can keep the books.

https://www.facebook.com/alyssa.sanders.357

https://www.facebook.com/groups/tubaeuph/

[DonO.]

IF you buy this thing from this lady (in sweet condition), you have to GIVE me the case (with the busted wheels) as a FINDERS FEE !!!
...9 hours straight west of you - all 4-lane...oh yeah: and you can keep the books.

https://www.facebook.com/alyssa.sanders.357

https://www.facebook.com/groups/tubaeuph/

Thank you bloke! I read the comments and it looks like she’s already decided to consign it with Lee Stofer after he’s serviced it for her.

[bloke]

Sorry, I didn't go that far. And that makes sense since she lives in the Quad Cities.

[DonO.]

Sorry, I didn't go that far. And that makes sense since she lives in the Quad Cities.

I would buy it from Lee, as I know he would make it as good as it could be!

[MN_TimTuba]

Still waiting on photos of the lady in sweet condition.
Tim

[bloke]

Here's one probably from the 1960's or 1970's...
It's in Cali...so you might need to recruit a Forumer to box and UPS it to you...and it probably needs a few hundred bucks spent on it...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/385507352408

[Estubist]

As i wrote in another thread, i sold my 70th Amati 481 (like Cerveny 681) in Feb. 2021 to get a new Cerveny CBB686-4B Symphonia 3. I'm still glad i did ist. Better to play because of the Minibal linkage and in my opinion a better sound.