Serpent and ophicleide on Berlioz

[bloke]

It's pretty common to hand that Mendelssohn part to the tuba player, because (unless a full-time orchestra, whereby everyone is full-time, rather than there being some "core") a tuba is probably already hired to play on some opening overture or concerto, and the folks in the office would rather not hire a third bassoonist for just one piece.

Euphonium is just a bit too grunty on double-low D's etc., the few times I've messed with Uncle Beer's super-large bore C euphonium, I got the same results. I guess if I pulled out my Elliott contrabass trombone mouthpiece, that might have worked, but my best solution was just to play the F tuba tastefully, and only cut loose somewhat in the big moment at the end. The part towards the beginning - where the hymn is stated, I've played in the written octave.

The trombone peeps used .547" and .562" instruments, and not trombones with six and a half inch or seven inch bells with trumpet-size bores, and no one called them out for hauling in inappropriate equipment.

I got paid and was hired back - as were the trombone players, so it must not have been too bad. I guess the point being that neither the B-flat euphonium, the giant bore C euphonium nor the F tuba are listed on the part, the orchestra didn't want to hire a contrabassoonist, and it probably didn't occur to them to seek a serpente artiste.

Circling back to the video posted at the top, I still maintain that the video should teach us (regardless of what particular instruments are at our disposal) to not blast our guts out on that passage, and that it sounds much more eerie and frightening to play it as if scored for a movie - for maximum effect.

Finally (re: Mendelssohn), thanks for showing me that the edtion that I've been handed might be an oddball, and that the editions with all Italian expression markings feature "e" and not "ou"... but - as he asked for both - maybe a tastefully-played tuba really isn't too much weight on that part.

[marccromme]

Cool performance, thanks for sharing. Wooden flutes, oboes with few claves, even two Kulo horns near the ending. Awesome!

[bloke]

Cool performance, thanks for sharing. Wooden flutes, oboes with few claves, even two Kulo horns near the ending. Awesome!

yep... I've watched and thought about that video several times in the past.

[Finetales]

That having been said, I've never seen a "shared" orchestral part before.

LOL...even in Haydn (etc.) symphonies - where the trumpet is basically a "honking percussion instrument", separate trumpet and timpani parts are supplied.

The Haydn Creation bass trombone and contrabassoon parts might as well be one part...the bass trombone never plays something the contrabassoon doesn't (as written, so sounding octaves). The contrabassoon plays other things while the bass trombonist rests, but that would be easy enough to specify on one part.

[iattp]

One of them is when the tuba is asked to play the Mendelssohn part for contrabassoon or serpent in the Reformation Symphony. Since most modern ears are accustomed to hearing it played with contrabassoon, I play that piece on F tuba in the contrabassoon octave.

The part's actually for both contrabassoon and serpent, so the octaves were intended, and sound fantastic when played well. French tuba!

I'm gonna do it...I'm gonna do it today!

[bloke]

We can discuss instruments all day long, but the REAL takeaway from that video is how wrong-@$$ so many tuba players (particularly since the later 1970's - when so many of us decided to turn up the volume to 11 - when playing with orchestras) have played those parts, how "less is more", and all sorts of things that can be learned from LISTENING to (vs. watching) that video.

[jtm]

We can discuss instruments all day long, but the REAL takeaway from that video is how wrong-@$$ so many tuba players (particularly since the later 1970's - when so many of us decided to turn up the volume to 11 - when playing with orchestras) have played those parts, how "less is more", and all sorts of things that can be learned from LISTENING to (vs. watching) that video.

One of the things I love about my F tuba is how easy it is to blend with bassoons. Or trombones. So flexible.

And if I watch too many of these I’m going to get sucked into the world of keyed bass brass and semi-brass…. Keys without the reeds; seems like a good combo.

[bloke]

I've played that piece (too?) many times, and several of the overtures multiple times, as well as some of the major works, such as the entire Damnation of Faust, Requiem, and that big "band" thing...uh...(trying to remember...) something-something Funeral and Triumphal...
Lately (when most Berlioz works appear), I leave the F tuba at home, and play those pieces on the (very large) compensating euphonium...and with the Elliott contrabass trombone mouthpiece...unless I'm playing in an orchestra whereby I'm not a "regular"...because I'm not going to walk in as a stranger and do things that are not as everyone else is (currently) doing them.

(The really large comp euphonium & that mouthpiece - as a setup - is a de facto "kaiser B-flat French tuba".)

[Snake Charmer]

de facto "kaiser B-flat French tuba"

tuba empereur en si bemol

[bloke]

if you wish, sir.

[iattp]

I've played that piece (too?) many times, and several of the overtures multiple times, as well as some of the major works, such as the entire Damnation of Faust, Requiem, and that big "band" thing...uh...(trying to remember...) something-something Funeral and Triumphal...
Lately (when most Berlioz works appear), I leave the F tuba at home, and play those pieces on the (very large) compensating euphonium...and with the Elliott contrabass trombone mouthpiece...unless I'm playing in an orchestra whereby I'm not a "regular"...because I'm not going to walk in as a stranger and do things that are not as everyone else is (currently) doing them.

(The really large comp euphonium & that mouthpiece - as a setup - is a de facto "kaiser B-flat French tuba".)

I just tried posting, but it kicked me off...

You mean this funeral thing, right?

[bloke]

Yep, but I've got to go fix trombones and didn't have time to listen to the video. That's it, though.

[tclements]

Why would you obsolete instruments in a modern orchestra? It doesn't make sense....

[UncleBeer]

Why would you obsolete instruments in a modern orchestra? It doesn't make sense....

Got news for you: ALL orchestral instruments are "obsolete" to one extent or another. Playing rep from 100+ years ago on a regular basis on instruments which haven't changed significantly in as many years. The "modern orchestra" is a moldering museum piece.

Change my mind.

[bloke]

yes...agreeing with Unc'.

It's all ancient/dusty cover band stuff.

The composers (sometimes...not always) would literally TOUR with their new tunes, and the local orchestras would play them for the peeps.

Those - arguably - were the (albeit multiple) "originals" (because there were no such things as recordings).

Electric basses - run through auto-tune (or not) - those are MODERN instruments...not a freakin' tuba or bull fiddle.

EVEN THOUGH ol' Unc' refuses to consider my a-bit-larger-than-a-French-tuba-with-a-contrabass-trombone-mouthpiece-with-a-B-flat-length-bugle-and-a-different-fully-chromatic-system to be a legitimate "FRENCH TUBA", I do, and I use it in that manner. Additionally, I think it's OK to use it as such PARTICULARLY since the trombones used (up until 1950 or so in France) were smaller, and those used today (EVEN IN France) are larger.


It's not easy to tell from the pic, but this bell and bottom bow are HUGE...Those Wick mutes (with the corks UNTRIMMED) nearly bottom out in this bell.
This thing (played with the mouthpiece mentioned), sounds much more like a small tuba than an a British-brass-band euphonium, and can make a racket!

[MikeS]

Why would you obsolete instruments in a modern orchestra? It doesn't make sense....

I think a lot of this thread really centers on the approach to the music as much as the instruments. The recording at the start of the thread shows that you can convey feelings of unease by means other than sheer volume. Listening to that performance is like watching “Psycho.” A lot of modern orchestras turn the same piece into “Evil Dead.” If you have a roomful of instruments, use whatever works best with the instruments you have to match and the conductor’s vision. If all you have is an F tuba, watch and listen and play it like a member of a group. Personally, I would hope my conductor would be more Hitchcock than Raimi.*

* Referring to artistic vision only and not to personal behavior.

[bloke]

Bravo @MikeS

A couple of times I've seen that piece performed on television and even a recording or two have shown where tuba players overplay the death chant notes. Rather than scary, it just comes off as silly. These instruments aren't capable of making that much noise (more like my euphonium which is limited in that same way and the French tuba and so on), and the amount of sound results in something eerie - rather than something ridiculous.

[MiBrassFS]

Agreeing the bear here, too.

Side note: The bell and bottom bow on the larger of the old Hirsbrunner models as well as the Adams E3 must be similar to Joe’s Meinl Weston as they completely swallow the Wick straight and practice mute to a very, very nearly touch condition at the flare. A bit of a push to really seat them and they’ll touch. With the right mouthpiece, tenor tuba is the right descriptor.