POLL !! - I've been looking - with more depth than in the past - into Wagner's operas (tuba-wise)

[bloke]

OK...

(School me where I'm wrong...I'm working on learning, and not seeking any arguments/controvery.)

It appears (??) as though the only operas which were composed for contrabass tuba (and specified) were the Ring Cycle operas - perhaps (??) to better represent the dragon than would most bass tubas (particularly considering the instruments available during Wagner's time/place).

Several of the other operas actually specify BASS TUBA, and - if we're to take Wagner at his word (when he specifies KONTRABASS TUBA), perhaps (??) we should also take him at his word when he specifies BASS TUBA - particularly when he is so very specific about various "Wagner tuben" et al.

A later (his only comic) opera, the Meistersinger opera, seems to have been written for BASS TUBA - even though first performed after the Ring cycle was composed and performed. Meistersinger was actually sketched out years earlier (during the midst of the Lohengrin/Tannhäuser era). Tristan and Parsifal (later operas) also seem to be BASS TUBA parts, and (well...) no dragons needed to be represented/portrayed in those two operas, so...

again:
I'm not looking to be correct. Rather, I'm looking to be corrected. In kolij, I didn't take in courses which delved deeply into opera...certainly not German opera, certainly not Wagner's operas, and certainly not "which sizes of tubas were used in which of Wagner's operas".

It seems as though many Americans tend to choose their beloved C tubas for Meistersinger, but not all....and sure, it's really great (and easier?) to play the opening passages on most C instruments - for many American players. That having been said, it's not American music, is it? Most Meistersinger printed tuba parts seem to only indicate TUBA, yet most scores (when one scrolls down the left sides of their first pages) indicate BASS-TUBA.

[UncleBeer]

I agree with everything you've said. Wagner's bass tuba parts seem to be written a fifth above his contrabass tuba parts, suggesting to me that he knew exactly what he was doing. (no big surprise)

[bloke]

gulp

[YorkNumber3.0]

.

[UncleBeer]

It seems as though many Americans tend to choose their beloved C tubas for Meistersinger, but not all....and sure, it's really great (and easier?) to play the opening passages on most C instruments - for many American players.

FWIW, Meistersinger works *great* on a big Eb!

[MikeMason]

Contrabass first page/ bass second page. But I’m sure Wagner didn’t intend the player bring 2 tubas on stage,

[TheBerlinerTuba]

Tubist/Researcher Jack Adler-McKean has done some excellent research on this:

[bloke]

A few things I really like about that essay are admissions of suppositions and possibilities rather than out-and-out statements, noted inconsistencies, comments about the likelihood of tuba players using whatever they have - which is the same today, and also discussion of finances - which continue to be a challenge to this day regarding art music and art music performance.

I really enjoyed listening to that and looking at the pictures to go with it. and appreciate very much it being linked.
in summary: amazing

That was the SECOND performance we've heard recently (the other recently having been offered from our own @Kontrabasstuba ) on a Vienna style tuba of that low excerpt from Rheingold, and both of them were performed extremely well. It's interesting how the excerpt offers (to me) a different mental interpretation of the dragon - with all that narrow-bugle/bell "fist" in the sound. In my comments in another thread, I referred to how some of the more well-financed opera companies have gone "Hollywood" (more fabulous scenery, competing with movies, etc.) and sure: necessarily - whereby the dragon is going to be so much larger, along with the tuba that - lately - typically represents it...often a M-W 95 or 97.
Something else that I consider is the tremendous amount of resonance (based on my reading and listening to videos) of traditional continental European venues (vs. typical North American concert halls). I can only imagine the sonic effects (and how they would differ) between the sound of a "very acoustically amplified" Vienna tuba vs. (ex.) a M-W Fafner. At various times, I've played in venues which offered tremendous amounts of resonance and reverberation...particular cathedrals/churches, one intentionally-built "in the style of European" concert hall, and one or two such smaller recital halls. The playing strategy complete changes (at least, for me).

Something else that I found interesting is the discussion of experimentation with giant bore F instruments (ie. "Why not just make the same length of tuba much fatter?"). A full-time professional friend of mine owns such an historical instrument, and - even after thick oil is run through the rotors, as it is quite old - it's obvious how difficult such an instrument is to steer as far as focus and intonation are concerned. While playing it, I was thinking about how players are asking for larger and larger F tubas today with larger and larger valve-bore sizes (not yet to the size of that instrument to which I refer, but I tend to notice the same issues - as models become larger and larger).

[bloke]

It seems as though many Americans tend to choose their beloved C tubas for Meistersinger, but not all....and sure, it's really great (and easier?) to play the opening passages on most C instruments - for many American players.

FWIW, Meistersinger works *great* on a big Eb!

I'm assuming that your 1-2 valve combination pitches all line up nicely on your instrument (or close), and my assumptions are based on the consistent online praise of that instrument.
Were a 1-2 E-natural as saggy are are some same-partial/same-valve-combination pitches on some other models/lengths of instruments (yet with their #1 slides all the way in), I could imagine a bunch of effort.

Some of us (low brass in one of my freeway-philharmonics) are politicking for an All-Wagner concert within the next season or two. Were such to occur, I would personally politic for a couple of these scenes (discussed in recent threads) from the Ring cycle (whereas - typically - the only thing pulled from ALL FOUR of those epic operas - for an "All Wagner" concert being "After duh Wabbit"). Several decades ago (agreed?) "All-Wagner" concerts were much more of a "thing" (in the USA). I recall playing the prelude/overture to Götterdämmerung in one such concert (letter 28 being a "bellows workout", yes?) As far as including the Rheingold 3rd "dragon" scene in an "All Wagner" concert (aside from it personally being a hoot to perform it), I suspect the patrons might find it interesting (fascinating...?? ie. How often is the tuba - in orchestral music - BOTH that low AND that exposed?)

Even though this may cause some to cringe, I would actually be OK with CUTTING some of the Wagner favorite scenes a bit (were it possible to do so without absolutely butchering them...??), in order to include MORE of them (including some much more rarely-included "Ring stuff" in such concerts), rather than - simply - only playing the same "chestnuts" and "barn-burners" which always tend to be included in such a concert.

[bloke]

I believe it's also instructive to realize how soon after the development of the valved bass tubas these operas were written which used tubas, and even occasionally in a solo capacity.

It had to be at least as wild and astonishing as the release of the "Switched On Bach" LPs which came out only about four years after the invention of the Moog synthesizer.

One of the opening statements in the video points out what incredible effects this music had on others' instrumentation, as it certainly gave other composers permission to use this instrument in their pieces (and not just in opera music).

Also - as plays and operas were the only versions of (20th-21st c.) "movies" of those times - wasn't Wagner sort of an 19th-century John Williams (not comparing their compositional skills an any ways, but in so much as so much of Williams music is movie music, and so much of Wagner's music was opera music) ?

Did the fact that Wagner was writing opera music (leaning more towards popular, and less towards highbrow) give him both permission and motivation to use more instruments which would provide more fantastic sonic effects (lower and higher - as well as louder/more shocking/more grand) ?

Going off in another direction...
As composers - in the first third of the 20th century - began writing music that either ignored harmonic structure or only alluded to it, eventually (late 40's, early 50's?) TV drama composers began writing similar music to portray various emotionals/situations in those dramas. (I find it interesting that some continue to turn up their noses at such music - when performed in concerts, but seem to accept it as perfectly fine - when it accompanies film noir and all sorts of other television dramas.)

[UncleBeer]

I believe it's also instructive to realize how soon after the development of the valved bass tubas these operas were written which used tubas, and even occasionally in a solo capacity.

Exactly. Let's not forget: Rienzi has both a bass tuba part AND a serpent part, but with different content. Wagner clearly still saw a role for this very different timbre. And Flying Dutchman was originally for ophicleide. These were times of musical transition, and Wagner was on the cutting edge.

[Kontrabasstuba]

@bloke @UncleBeer

Here is a comparson between:
valved Ophicleide, Ophicleide and Tuba on :The flying Dutchman

[bloke]

All of them sound really great , and anything's going to sound as good as its players. Thank you for sharing those. It's really interesting.
In my own orchestras, I'd probably use my particularly fat-belled compensating euphonium, and - if subbing - I would use an F tuba - so as to not create any waves as to hopefully be asked back.
=≈=====
Someone can school me on this, but I tend to view the ophicleides with valves - as well as the things that we call "cimbassos" (which are contrabass valve trombones with small-to-large tuba size bores - all being larger than the bore sizes of any slide contrabass trombones - in the valve sections) as newfangled things.