Let's set the record straight

[The Big Ben]

First of all, I've been to the tuba museum in Durham.
Second, I was blown away by Vince's dedication to buying really interesting instruments, and then providing a place to display them for the tuba community.

I would say that 90% of the instruments there are unique instruments that 1) you would never see anyone perform on these days. And 2) are so rare that each of them are just one of a handful or less of those instruments surviving in the world, or they have some sort of historical notoriety, maybe being owned by a famous player

We as a tuba community should be supporting Vince in his efforts by sharing his collection with others and visiting when we can. Not slandering him by calling him a hoarder.

If you think Vince is collecting instruments that are somehow keeping others from performing on them, then you obviously haven't taken his tour, and I would encourage you to do so.

I transported one of the instruments he displays to the museum, and trust me it was unplayable at even the amateur level, but it was old and unique, and that was a good place for it to be.

I'm going to say this very clearly. If you feel the need to criticize the collection, I'm going to ask you to keep scrolling and not say anything

[Heavy_Metal]

So many tubas, so little time..............

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[Grumpikins]

It looks awesome. I want to get there someday.

There will always be people who disagree. "Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one." They just miss out on something cool that celebrates basic elements of being human. Music. Love. Comedy. Etc. Weve had the same problem here with the national comedy center. When you see it, the scope of it, it hits you how it's a basic part of humanity.

Sent from my SM-S367VL using Tapatalk

[tclements]

MAN! Has he got some beauties! I hope to make it down there sometime. Thank you for sharing. Do you know if there is a web site, or a file that shows ALL of the instruments??

[LeMark]

MAN! Has he got some beauties! I hope to make it down there sometime. Thank you for sharing. Do you know if there is a web site, or a file that shows ALL of the instruments??

Pretty sure they are all here. I only posted a fraction of what he has

https://simonettitubacollection.com/

[bloke]

I saw two, three, or four instruments - in those particular pictures - that should be played, and most of these rest - oddballs/likely-worn-out/etc. that absolutely are curiosities that are - very appropriately - display items...but (of everything there) again: those are pictures you chose to take (or - at least - post here).

I didn't introduce the word, "hoard" into the conversation.

The ginormous-super-duper-engraved Conn sousaphone, the huge raincatcher helicon, and the keyed bugle - at Interlochen... same thing: They aren't practical everyday daily-driver working instruments (as is a modern/outside-spring-linkage Alexander C tuba, a King tuba, etc.), and belong illuminated - behind glass.

Of the viable/modern-era progressional instruments, I can't help how many of those (from having sat so long) now feature severely frozen slides.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a collection; I'm only saying that the NOT-weird/oddball/worn-out instruments which are modern-era professional-grade instruments (of that collection) really ought to be sold and played/enjoyed, rather than most shut off in a mostly-locked/darkened room.

Also - as far as this forum is concerned, I think Mark has done a really good job of picking out interesting/oddball instruments to highlight, and mostly his skipped modern era / not really historical things that - in my opinion - should be sold from the collection, and played daily.

bloke "Thank-you for allowing me (us...?? the royal "we"...??) to set the record straight. ...even though I already clarified those points."

YES !!!
Stuff like this, does NOT need to be played - and (in particular) this one was never really intended to be played.
Stuff like this belongs ON DISPLAY, possibly checked over annually, and doesn't need to be marched around with in halftime shows:


picture from Conn Loyalist site, part of the Greenleaf Collection

[bisontuba]

A Museum, public or private, can put in anything that relates to it's Mission Statement...whether 200 years old or 1 day old...

[bloke]

Yes they can, and others are free to agree or disagree as to whether keeping certain things and not selling them - so they can't be put to good use - is wise or unwise.

Were I a car collector - as is Jay Leno many other people, I doubt that I would have very many things included in my display collection such as perfectly viable 2006 Ford F-150 pickup trucks - nor similar vehicles of no collector interest/curiosity, but tremendous amounts of user interest.

[bort2.0]

Several times now, I've written long replies and deleted them all. I think what's needed to be said, has already been said. But overkill never fails, so...

There's static history, and then there's living history.
* It's difficult to think generally of "tubas" as static history, since the entire point of a tuba is to make music that people can hear. They aren't designed only for gazing, right?
* So, the best candidates for static history are tubas that are irreparable, broken, worn out, or really serve no practical use in modern times even if they do function. They are worth preserving, knowing that they won't be played again. Cool with that.
* And yes, I'm the one who called some of them "dead tubas." I think there certainly are some dead tubas down in NC. Cool that they are in the museum too. It's like tuba taxidermy.
* Living history (in the internet era) is documented as it's happening, and doesn't have an end (yet). Still being used to make music, and is heard by people. Doesn't have to be all that new, or even an all the time thing, but it's just "not dead yet." I'm certainly a nobody in the tuba world, but my tuba is a 100 year old Martin Eb. I'd consider that to be living history; it plays well and sounds nice, and has a ton of life left in it. No, a smallish 3 valve Eb is few people's dream tuba (mine neither), but it's a tuba that deserves to be played and heard. And I'm happy to take that responsibility for a good while.

My problem is where the end of "living history" is decided and the beginning of "static history" begins. If there's 10% of the time where that overlap isn't really "necessary," that's the part that I can't overlook.
* The 186 and Alexander that Joe pointed out.
* The "bought-new for the collection" Cerveny Piggy and B&M CC that Vince pointed out to me
* And of course, the "Brett won't shut up about it" Martin 6/4 BBb that Lenny Jung donated (or sold? not my business to know) to the museum.

I was familiar to that Martin having sat next to Lenny one year in a community band. Outrageously beautiful tuba sound. I never played it myself, and while I know Lenny was the source of the musical magic, the tuba was the one that output the tone. Lenny and Martin together was something extremely special.

But for a one of a kind tuba like that, I just can't help but think that current and future audiences need to hear that tuba as well. Maybe it's in horrid disrepair, but Vince sure didn't tell me if it was (and I asked). I don't think that tuba is ready for static history yet, and preserving its memory and honoring its past would best be done by playing and showcasing it regularly. Sure, people will argue "is it really any better to be in some obscure XYZ community band playing nonsense band music? How is that honoring and preserving it?" I think "being heard" is better in every way than "never being heard," and that's what makes me sad about this 10% of the collection.

That said, Vince owns it now, and he will do what he pleases. I've got no jealousy or resentment, it's not my business what he does, I'm glad it's on display (front and center -- the pride of Vince's collection!), and only good feelings overall about the whole thing. I *don't* have to agree with it, and I sure don't need to hide the fact that if it were me, I'd do things differently. That's all.

Side note -- Vince told me as well, that some instruments DO get used from time to time:
* The Mahillion French C tuba was loaned to a major orchestra tuba player to use for Bydlo when performing Pictures at an Exhibition.
* The (I think!) B&M CC tuba -- when brand new -- was loaned to a top professional who was passing through town and needed a horn ASAP. (The story was something like.... Vince let him borrow it because it was brand new. The next day, upon returning the horn, Vince asked "how did it go?" to which the pro replied something like "wow, what a piece of Shirt!" Vince was really confused, since it was a new tuba... so he tried it himself, and also discovered, this is awful. Brand new, but the valves were all way out of alignment. A quick fix to realign the valves, and everything was fixed and literally good as new.)

^I think that last story probably sums up the condition of those 10% of tubas in the collection, if even a few more... they won't work very well straight off the shelf. But it wouldn't take much to make them go.

Anyway, final advice -- I recommend going to the museum if you haven't been. But you probably should plan to do it sooner than later.

[bisontuba]

I visited the Henry Ford museum a couple months ago, and I saw displays and artifacts that were manufactured AFTER the last time I was there 40 years ago

Should I have complained that the cars from the 80's they were displaying could still be in service?

No, because it's not about taking them out of others that could use them, it's about preserving them as examples so hopefully 100 years from now they are still able to be enjoyed and appreciated by others.

[bloke]

Get the contrasting opinions, and at least the thread hasn't been locked.

I remember when Mark used to gush over jimbo stuff and how cool it was that he could get stuff that was exactly like $9,000 stuff for only $1,500.

Currently, the $9,000 (well...now $11,000) stuff is still viable, and very usable. Further, it isn't rare, but in the future those manufacturers of the $11,000 2023 stuff probably won't exist, and the only thing that may continue to exist will be Jimbo, and at $50,000 types of prices.

...Is there any Jimbo stuff being bought new and placed in the museum to preserve for posterity?

[bort2.0]

I bet they made more than one, though. Especially given Mr Ford's expertise for building efficiencies... everything is "at scale."

[windshieldbug]

The Ford museum isn't all about Ford cars. It's not even about cars. That was just an example

Amazing place

[bort2.0]

My wife's father is from a nice suburb of Detroit, and we have been out there a ton of times to visit family. Still haven't made it to the museum. That guy was something else, for sure.

There used to be a large plant in St Paul, right near where my wife grew up. Right on the Mississippi River, strategically chosen for hydropower, rail access, mineral deposits, on and on... just brilliant. Plant closed about 10(?) years ago. Has since been cleared out, absolutely massive plot of land, on which they are basically building a small new town of high density housing. It's nice and well designed and all. But it sure ain't what it used to be. At least at the end, they made the Ford Ranger there. The "vehicle they are building, posed halfway driving up some rocks" on display at the front of the factory was always comical to me. Neat to see, but I always wondered if it was any more than a shell that -- from the road -- looks like an entire completed vehicle. I mean, no need to finish it and waste all those parts and labor if it looks good enough from the outside.

Anyway, anyone else thinking about the end of Ferris Bueller now?

[bisontuba]

Get the contrasting opinions, and at least the thread hasn't been locked.

I remember when Mark used to gush over jimbo stuff and how cool it was that he could get stuff that was exactly like $9,000 stuff for only $1,500.

Currently, the $9,000 (well...now $11,000) stuff is still viable, and very usable. Further, it isn't rare, but in the future those manufacturers of the $11,000 2023 stuff probably won't exist, and the only thing that may continue to exist will be Jimbo, and at $50,000 types of prices.

...Is there any Jimbo stuff being bought new and placed in the museum to preserve for posterity?

What does this have to do with the Tuba Museum?

[hrender]

I think it’s useful to have a museum/collection where notable examples of instruments and mouthpieces can be examined and, in limited circumstances, used. That’s pretty much what any museum has as its purpose. When it’s a private institution, the rules are whatever the owner wants them to be. For those who want a place with different rules, they can open their own museum.

[bloke]

If I declared my personally-used-for-gigs instruments as a "museum" (as they've all depreciated out) could there be any tax advantages?

What if all of the instruments my business owns were converted to such a thing (including Bundy trumpets, JP trombones, mountains of plastic clarinets, old waiting-to-be-repaired sousaphones, and such)...??

[Rick Denney]

If I declared my personally-used-for-gigs instruments as a "museum" (as they've all depreciated out) could there be any tax advantages?

What if all of the instruments my business owns were converted to such a thing (including Bundy trumpets, JP trombones, mountains of plastic clarinets, old waiting-to-be-repaired sousaphones, and such)...??

I know you are being the devil's advocate, though you might consider if the juice is worth the squeeze.

The answer is maybe, but only if you want to go to the trouble of having it declared as a tax-exempt charitable organization. The time you spend doing that will cost you more than whatever you save, probably. The only time it's worth going to that trouble is when you charge admission to your museum, so that the museum corporation doesn't have to pay taxes on its income, and so you can tell your donors that they can claim their donations on their own taxes. But if the museum corporation hires you and you draw income from it (or if you net any profit as a sole proprietor without incorporation), you'll still have to pay taxes on that.

So: someone comes up with an idea for a massed tuba player ensemble for an important holiday each year, and charges a high price for participation in addition to selling local promoters a bunch of swag to hand out, and using that money to fund lots of travel and pet projects--that's worth the legal hassle if it becomes popular enough to bring in positive revenue flow.

But a retired music instrument distributer who collects instruments and shows them to people for free, especially when the collection is already in place and no new acquisitions are forthcoming? I could see an advantage to incorporating a museum and transferring ownership of the collection to the corporation, whether or not it's tax-exempt. Corporations can own things perpetually, while individuals stop owning things when they pass on. It might be a way to administer the collection more easily than asking heirs to deal with it.

As to whatever curatorial standards might be assumed, is it really that important? Are there so few good instruments that you chafe at a few of them not being used regularly?

Rick "seriously doubting that Vince's interest extends beyond keeping the stream of friends old and new coming for visits" Denney

[dp]

I Have family and friends in the Carolinas, a couple months ago my niece suggested we go to "a tuba museum that's near here."

So, I said "sure, what's it like?"

And she said, "I don't know, why would I ever go there if you weren't with me?"

Hopefully Ige doesn't decide to declare Vince racist, or claim that museum isn't inclusive enough, no one will know what to do and will just fold