York Hybrid re-plate?

[Tim Jackson]

I have added a CC York CB-50 raw brass hybrid to my stable and want to ask some questions and fish for some opinions as well.
The horn consists of an early bell and top & bottom bow. Looks like 1910ish York Eb bell - smaller engraving. The valve set is the Getzen CB-50. The bell size is very simliar to the other CB-50 I own.
I want to separate my questions and observations to a few posts over the next few days so each thread stays on track. I hope you will comment freely on each.

First topic: Could a beautiful plating job add value to a frankin hybrid? To Plate or not to Plate!

The horn plays very well and in tune. At the present, it is raw brass. I love restoring things and dig the vintage horn look. I would like to have this instrument tricked out with a satin silver finish with bright trim. I understand I will probably not recover this expence in a future sale. Seems like hybrids sell in the 5K-6K range. After plating I will have around $8000 in the horn. Costs is not an issue. Doing this gives me pleasure and the horn will probably be my main player. (I play daily for my own enjoyment).

Do you think hyrids (unfinished) sell in a lower range because of esthetics?
Do you think hybrids sell lower because they are not a "rated brand model"?
Do most young buyers go for the new model they know and understand to be acceptable over great horns of the past?
Are there any other positive spin-offs for this type investment?

Most hybrids I see are not re-plated - Wondering if the market buyers (maybe mostly older guys) for such instruments are really more interested in how it plays and not looks. At lease not willing to pay a couple of thousand for beauty.

In this weird China market I am continually amazed at what folks overlook on thier way to buying the new shiny "flavor of the day".

You may be wondering - if this is a horn I will keep, play, and enjoy, why are my questions about selling. Well, at my age, one must consider everything will be for sale over the next several years.

I look forward to your comments!
Enjoying being on this site!


Tim Jackson
1960 186 CC 5U
1925 6/4 York BBb
CB-50
CB-50 York Bell hybrid
Yamaha 621 F

[Doc]

1. Could a beautiful plating job add value to a frankin hybrid? To Plate or not to Plate!
2. Do you think hyrids (unfinished) sell in a lower range because of esthetics?
3. Do you think hybrids sell lower because they are not a "rated brand model"?
4. Do most young buyers go for the new model they know and understand to be acceptable over great horns of the past?
5. Are there any other positive spin-offs for this type investment?

1. Could a beautiful plating job add value to a frankin hybrid? To Plate or not to Plate!

It certainly adds value, but the exact amount is hard to say. It would be whatever a buyer would pay or the market would bear. I bought a restored and replated vintage instrument (not a frankentuba) that was not cheap. Had the appearance been left as is, it would still be a superb instrument, but I would have never paid what it cost. The finish definitely added value for me, and I'm not driven by appearance.

2. Do you think hyrids (unfinished) sell in a lower range because of esthetics?

Maybe, but they aren't factory-new instruments either. Many of the tubas used to create a hybrid aren't that costly on their own, so it's hard to ask for big money many times greater than the sum of its parts, especially when they have a hodge-podge, potpourri-of-parts appearance, despite any miraculous, synergistic results. Replating could certainly help sales, unless someone likes the frankentuba look (which has its appeal), but if someone needs to recoup the expense of that replating job, that could be a concern. I'm sure Sam Gnagey, Tabor, Dan, Lee, Joe, etc. can comment accurately about cost of plating as it relates to market value.

3. Do you think hybrids sell lower because they are not a "rated brand model"?

That's likely a concern to some buyers, albeit to varying degrees, and not a concern to some at all. It doesn't help that frankentubas are all unique (no reference models to try at all the conventions, neighboring tuba players don't have one just like it to try, etc.). Frankentubas seem to be a niche thing, but that's a shame - there are some really great frankentubas out there that do NOT cost as much as new or even used in some cases. Having confidence in a guy putting parts together in his garage vs. seasoned factory workers at a company with a great reputation could be a stretch for some buyers. This is definitely a case of "trying is believing." If you ever sell yours, plated or not, photos and good sound samples will certainly help. I think the market for frankentubas is those who want a good playing tuba that doesn't cost a fortune, someone who values playability first, and/or the person who likes something unique and different. If it has a wonderful appearance, that opens the door to other potential buyers and a higher sale price. That sale price may or may not offset the cost of the plating job, but your enjoyment of that beautiful plating job while you own it might more than make up the difference.

4. Do most young buyers go for the new model they know and understand to be acceptable over great horns of the past?

*channeling bloke* "Hey, it's nice to have a shiny instrument that is clean and in excellent condition, yes?" We've seen young players buy "shiny new stuff," but the tuba wasn't really an excellent player. That trend seems to be more pronounced today than ever with everything, not just tubas. I've had tubas in all manner of appearance, but the criteria for purchase was how they played. The first tuba I actually owned was Rudy 3/4 CC (that I should have NEVER sold), and the lacquer on it was typical Rudy - falling off, splotchy... it was the Holstein cow of tuba, and I didn't care. Neither did anyone else. Because it sounded fantastic. Young people today have grown up in a different world. They are accustomed to instant gratification in all areas and having the nicest/prettiest/bestest of everything. Pop culture demands it. Living that instagram life! In all fairness, not all young people are that way, but it's a different world now, and you ask a valid question.

5. Are there any other positive spin-offs for this type investment?

One positive spinoff is that you'll have a tuba you enjoy even more. What's that worth? That's up to you. If you judge it solely in terms of recovering all costs associated with replating/cosmetic work, save your money. If cost isn't a big factor up front, and you want to enjoy how the tuba plays and you want it to have a pleasing appearance (and you might recover some of that cost later on), get it replated. How important is it that you recoup your replating money? How much money is acceptable/unacceptable to recoup? How much value does your enjoyment of the tuba have? Where's the trade off, or is there one?

I'm an old Jeep guy. I buy parts, wheels, tires, lifts, winches, accessories, etc. because I enjoy the finished product's new utility, but I also enjoy the appearance. I use my Jeeps - they aren't mall crawlers - but many people like the appearance of a lifted/built Jeep, and they may rarely go off road. The most they may do is go over speed bumps at the mall. But it's their money - they can please themselves with it all they want whether they use it off road or not. Is that a big waste of money? It depends on who you ask. The Jeep folk will not say it's a waste. The enjoyment of it alone is worth the price of admission (and the costs involved can make tubas seem cheap).

After building my last Jeep, I got comments and questions from all kinds of people all the time about her. Occasionally, I would get asked about gas mileage. My response is always, "I don't know, and I don't care." I have a Corolla for that. And I share with them a Jeep life truism - "It ain't about miles per gallon. It's about smiles per gallon." So, Tim... how many smiles per gallon would you like this tuba to bring you? If cost is not really a factor on the front end, and you intend to use it until you can't anymore, and you apparently LIKE the idea of replating, why ask about it? Either be incredibly practical or enjoy yourself. We can't take it with us, and we can't base our retirement on how much our tubas will sell for, so... What's the price of joy, Tim? Only you can answer that.

[Yorkboy]

Having a "frankentuba" (I hate that expression, BTW), or for that matter, any tuba re-plated is an arduous and difficult job (dent work, solder clean-up, buffing and degreasing, etc.), even for professional builders, let alone your shade-tree builder (like myself). Add on to that the risk (and cost) of shipping it to a place like Anderson's, and then you get a general idea ofor what's involved..... and it's expensive. There are several horns I've built that I'd love to get silver plated, but it's just not worth the hassle (to me, at least).

(I should say, however, that some custom builders pay more attention to these fine details than others, and yet it doesn't seem to make a tremendous difference in sale or re-sale values.)

As to a "custom build" as opposed to a "brand-new-shiny", the variables are too numerous to evaluate as a generality. Cost, appearance, playability, location, even political ideologies, to some extent, will determine what a person will buy.

My opinion is, if it plays (especially for you) you got your money's worth.

--------------------------------------------------


Doc, I love jeeps too, but haven't had one for many years. My last one was a 1968 Kaiser Jeepster Commando (aka CJ-6) with a Buick Dauntless V6 engine. I originally had plans to restore it.

I wish I had never sold it.....

DSC08211 (1).JPG (80.89 KiB) Viewed 1490 times

[The Big Ben]

The biggest problem with having a tuba replated would be finding someone to do it. Silver (gold!) is beautiful but every flaw in the horn will show up. If you can see the difference between a $500 and a $5000 paint job on a car, the difference is not the cost of the paint. That is pretty much the same. The difference is the preparation and the application. There are very few car restorers who merit giving $5000 for their work. Even fewer instrument techs.

[Doc]

Having a "frankentuba" (I hate that expression, BTW), or for that matter, any tuba re-plated is an arduous and difficult job (dent work, solder clean-up, buffing and degreasing, etc.), even for professional builders, let alone your shade-tree builder (like myself). Add on to that the risk (and cost) of shipping it to a place like Anderson's, and then you get a general idea ofor what's involved..... and it's expensive. There are several horns I've built that I'd love to get silver plated, but it's just not worth the hassle (to me, at least).

(I should say, however, that some custom builders pay more attention to these fine details than others, and yet it doesn't seem to make a tremendous difference in sale or re-sale values.)

As to a "custom build" as opposed to a "brand-new-shiny", the variables are too numerous to evaluate as a generality. Cost, appearance, playability, location, even political ideologies, to some extent, will determine what a person will buy.

My opinion is, if it plays (especially for you) you got your money's worth.

--------------------------------------------------

It's true that the prepwork is the real b*+(#. The amount of work and associated costs would have to be determined. But you could have a pretty good idea of what it would cost prior to spending the money. If it's worth it to you personally, go for it.

Doc, I love jeeps too, but haven't had one for many years. My last one was a 1968 Kaiser Jeepster Commando (aka CJ-6) with a Buick Dauntless V6 engine. I originally had plans to restore it.

I wish I had never sold it..... DSC08211 (1).JPG

I feel your pain. Sellers remorse runs deep with tubas and Jeeps. And it's nearly impossible to get the same one back again.

[Tim Jackson]

Thanks for the great comments. OK, I use the term "Franken Tuba" loosely. It is actually a CB-50 with a York bell. A very nice and well thought out job by York scholar and enthusiast Joseph Agnew assisted by Bob Rusk. The instrument just returned from a detailed tweaking by Lee Stofer. Leadpipe tapering and adding a few needed braces.

The horn has great intonation and wonderful playing attributes. I should have included a picture on the first post.

CB-50 with York Bell

York Tuba CB-50.jpg (48.82 KiB) Viewed 1447 times

[LargeTuba]

Has anyone tried to go to a industrial metal plater and asked them to do a tuba, maybe with nickel. I've heard a lot of good things about nickel, especially the price saving aspects.

This one is pretty close to me: http://www.reliableplating.com/

The satin Nickel "option" is especially appealing.

[tbonesullivan]

You won't see many instruments plated with nickel these days. Honestly I'd suggest doing lacquer before you do nickel.

Plating is something you don't want to cheap out on. If they don't prep properly, the plating won't adhere right, and you've got a mess. Most shops that send stuff out to plating do a ton of prep work to get them ready.

[Yorkboy]

Has anyone tried to go to a industrial metal plater and asked them to do a tuba, maybe with nickel. I've heard a lot of good things about nickel, especially the price saving aspects.

This one is pretty close to me: http://www.reliableplating.com/

The satin Nickel "option" is especially appealing.

If you're near Chicago, you'd might as well go to Anderson in Elkhart. They are the foremost musical instrument plater in the United States (even though they don't do valve rebuilding anymore, which IMO was a great loss to the industry )

Nickel would be a poor choice over silver - I can't imagine the savings would be worth it. Plus, the big expense is in the prep work.

Do any manufacturers even plate their horns with nickel nowadays (other than in India)? I know it was in use in the early days.

[tofu]

[Yorkboy]

others are a hodgepodge of DIYers who think they know what they are doing and some will learn a long the way but an awful lot just mess up some bad and some good horns

I'm assuming your opinion is guided by your extensive experience in tuba-building

(I'm sure you probably already know that the original CB50 is itself a "frankentuba")

[Doc]

It's too bad that we don't have a gathering where everyone could bring their creations for all to play-test and enjoy, to talk shop, share ideas and techniques... but at least we have TubaForum.net. Just add more sound samples of your tubas!

[tofu]

[dp]

Clean and polish it as best you can, then use something like simonize on it to slow the tarnishing. Say hello to Joseph for me?

[Yorkboy]

I've played many DIY creations over the years. And most aren't very good. One doesn't need to build something to know it doesn't play well.

Was the snarky sarcasm necessary?

Not trying to be snarky at all - your original comments led me to believe you know more about custom built tubas than you actually do.

Truth is, a poorly built instrument will not last, no matter how well it plays. Someone who knows nothing about construction wouldn't likely take this into consideration.

There are a lot of builders who come here regularly, who make very fine playing, well constructed instruments. Theres no way you could have sampled all of their creations (you've certainly never played any of mine) so your experience is more limited than you think. To come here and paint everyone with a negative broad brush is somewhat misguided and unfair.

[bloke]

This thread really doesn't interest me very much (first read: just now), and I've only ducked in to comment on nickel plating:

Most places that I know of (and have entered numerous times) have big bars (assemblies) mounted over their nickel tanks, which facilitate the plating of (per typical with nickel plating on band instruments) small items...keys/screws/carriages/levers/etc...

That bar assembly (even if the tank is large) prohibits the insertion of a tuba (even if small, and even if the bell is removed from the body) into those nickel plating tanks.

The only person (who might ...?? have a nickel tank) who I haven't asked (sort-of within driving distance of me...and who has band instrument experience) is Ed Strege...but I tend to expect the same with him.

ok...to the topic:
I've never assembled any tuba with a motive of - immediately upon completion - selling the finished product, so it's good (regardless of anyone's reasoning) that I'm not grouped in with the frankentubaists. ie. I'm not in that bidnuss.

[Yorkboy]

I've never assembled any tuba with a motive of - immediately upon completion - selling the finished product, so it's good (regardless of anyone's reasoning) that I'm not grouped in with the frankentubaists. ie. I'm not in that bidnuss.

Good reasoning, indeed. I've always felt exactly the same way, in that I still own every horn I've built.

Not to reopen an old wound, but I think different people have different opinions on what defines a horn as being a "frankentuba". By the strictest definition, even a side-action conversion (the vast majority of my jobs) is considered a frankentuba, while nothing in the bugle taper has been altered or replaced.

[bloke]

I've never assembled any tuba with a motive of - immediately upon completion - selling the finished product, so it's good (regardless of anyone's reasoning) that I'm not grouped in with the frankentubaists. ie. I'm not in that bidnuss.

Good reasoning, indeed. I've always felt exactly the same way, in that I still own every horn I've built.

...and - from the obsolete/recently-morphed-into-political forum - you (and others) know that - when I look around here and begin to see more tubas than I can reasonably utilize to generate income (via the playing of them), I feel discomfort, zero in on the ones with the thickest dust on them (regardless of how "amazing" they are), get them sold, and convert those revenues into things that benefit our family more than do dust-collecting amazing (yet "spare") tubas.

My emotions (not towards collected-up tubas, but...) lean towards family/friends and towards those who (in various diabolical ways, claiming - on TV - to "care" about me) are my sworn enemies.

bloke "out"

[Yorkboy]

I've never assembled any tuba with a motive of - immediately upon completion - selling the finished product, so it's good (regardless of anyone's reasoning) that I'm not grouped in with the frankentubaists. ie. I'm not in that bidnuss.

Good reasoning, indeed. I've always felt exactly the same way, in that I still own every horn I've built.

...and - from the obsolete/recently-morphed-into-political forum - you (and others) know that - when I look around here and begin to see more tubas than I can reasonably utilize to generate income (via the playing of them), I feel discomfort, zero in on the ones with the thickest dust on them (regardless of how "amazing" they are), get them sold, and convert those revenues into things that benefit our family more than do dust-collecting amazing (yet "spare") tubas.

My emotions (not towards collected-up tubas, but...) lean towards family/friends and towards those who (in various diabolical ways, claiming - on TV - to "care" about me) are my sworn enemies.

bloke "out"

It may be difficult to explain, but I build tubas as a hobby, just as others build cars, or knit afghans, or collect stamps. None of my horns are for sale because they are things that I make for the love of it, not for profit.

I don't give them the "productivity test" because even though I have played professionally, my builds were not made with that in mind. (I might at some point, but I'm not emotionally there yet......)

Do you have a hobby, something that you do just for yourself with no expectation of financial gain? If so, you'll understand (I hope )

[bloke]

We completely understand each others' motives, and there's no need to explain/defend. Everyone is completely justified re: their own motives.
I don't have any hobbies - other than realizing Mrs. bloke's imagined projects around the property.
She has enough hobbies for several people put together, and all of them make me chuckle.
In the past, I regularly played tennis (hobby...??), but all of my former tennis friends and I live far apart, now.

bloke "hoping for an exit strategy from this thread..."