brass instrument finish aesthetics

[Grumpikins]

That is very pretty. So im wondering, you mentioned sandblasting before. Ive done some before and have a small hf canister rig. What media do you use, and about what psi, how far away (nozzle to part) do you hold? About....

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[Tubajug]

I believe these are two different instruments, as the first one does not appear to have a gold brass valve section. The second photo is from May 14 of this year and came from their Facebook page, for what it's worth.

Yeah, the second tuba has a lyre holder above the thumb ring. Beautiful finish though!

[bloke]

The words Aesthetics and Acoustics are not synonyms.

My topic is just "looks"...
... but I'm not a religious polisher of unpainted metals.

[jtm]

So I have a raw brass tuba that's a little dingy -- water spots, smudges, speckles -- even after cleaning. I think might look nice shiny.

Besides the effort, are there reasons -- metal protection, resale value, frustration with keeping it clean -- that I shouldn't shine it up?

[TheHatTuba]

The "vintage" look hides imperfections better (or maybe it just lowers expectations).

If it's in great shape, I vote "frustration with keeping it clean."

[matt g]

Besides the effort, are there reasons -- metal protection, resale value, frustration with keeping it clean -- that I shouldn't shine it up?

It would take a while with a pretty high frequency of polishing, but the brass can begin to thin. Polishing removes tarnish which is the outer layer of oxidized brass.

Like a very, very slow version of buffing.

[Rick Denney]

My Hirsbrunner is silver-plated. Sure is purty. I polish it once every couple of years.

The 184, B&S F tuba, Eastman, and Yamaha are all lacquered. The 184 is, I think (Joe can answer this) a mixture of old and new lacquer, probably nitrocellulose. The B&S is certainly that. The Yamaha and the Eastman are epoxy. The Yamaha has endured now three decades of use, much of it for outdoor gigs. Still looks good--the few issues on the instrument don't read from the front. The Eastman is the prettiest of the bunch, in terms of finish.

My Miraphone 186 was unlacquered, and it would form a lovely antique brass patina after being polished.

The Giardinelli/B&S is lacquered here and there and raw brass mostly. Shiny does not serve it well--gloss exposes all the many flaws. For that one, I can think of two options: 1.) satin-finish or even matte-finish rattle-can lacquer, or 2.) brushing or blasting followed by lacquer. I don't really like the idea of lacquering a blasted finish--it's too difficult to perform repairs later and make it look right. Probably if I sprayed using a spray gun instead of a rattle can I'd get enough orange peel to simulate the non-gloss finish.

The plastic Martin is going to get a satin black, ala carbon composite.

The latter two are on the to-do list, but they are not near the top of the list.

Rick "something cool about a beat-up looking instrument that functions and plays perfectly, but only it's all the way raw" Denney

[arpthark]

The "vintage" look hides imperfections better (or maybe it just lowers expectations).

If it's in great shape, I vote "frustration with keeping it clean."

I agree. Once you start polishing, @jtm, you will realize what an undertaking it is and how many little nooks, crannies and imperfections are in the tuba.

I had this beautiful Alexander Vienna-system (3+3) F tuba in raw brass that had developed a decent patina but had some reddish blotches I wasn't a fan of. At first I polished the bell, and thought it looked pretty good, so then I tried to polish the body. Mistake! Took forever and even after I was done -- having gone through a couple quarts of Brasso -- it just didn't look professional. I was in grad school in a small apartment without the space or resources to do what needed to be done, and I would do it differently/more methodically today. I don't think I even had an outside water hose to rinse it off.

(here it is after just polishing the bell:

)

[donn]

There's a cultural aspect to this. Any particular ensemble is going to have its own angle on it. From all instruments must be shiny, to a shiny instrument doesn't really belong here. A few probably have an essentially shiny instrument preference but with exceptions where a very nice patina would be OK.

[bloke]

@Rick Denney

It's your Martin fiberglass and no one's else, but I would have it repainted original, were it mine. They've actually gotten a whole lot better at making those types of colors look more like real metal, as you well know... and as gingerly as you're going to be handling that thing for the rest of your life, rattle can lacquers have become remarkably durable and even their nozzles spray lacquer out remarkably nicely, compared to old school rattle can nozzles. I'm not sure how similar Martin was to Bundy, but when Bundy painted instruments for a while, the way they achieved that weird look was to cover up their gold metallic paint with clear coat. I guess it's not weird when one sees it on a car, but it's weird on an instrument.

My mother was a master at perfectly matching solid colors - as she was a particularly talented commercial artist, and I stumble around attempting to match stains and see-through lacquer colors.

It's really difficult for me to match old lacquer, as - via deterioration- it picks up some very subtle hues of browns and reds and greens, as well as yellows, but I think I came fairly close to matching your original valve section lacquer when reshooting the large outside parts on that 184. Regardless of how close I came to hitting the target or how badly I missed the mark, it was hard. Another problem with matching old lacquer is that new lacquer is not old, no matter how close to the color one manages to come.

[donn]

I like satin black far better than the old kind of faux metal paint. But I've seen a metal mirror finish on some plastic instruments of late, don't know if that's something that could feasibly be applied to an old instrument.

I was actually idly thinking of paint for my raw brass sousaphone this morning. I wouldn't really do it, but it could in principle be a pretty good look. Satin finish, maybe black, dark blue or green. If only paint could be really scratch resistant.

[Rick Denney]

The advantage to satin black is two-fold: 1. It hides a multitude of sins. The finish on the Martin is not smooth and I'm also going to have to epoxy some cracks when I restore it. 2. It has that cool carbon-composite look.

Shiny it does not need to be. I will certainly do something conventional with the brass parts, depending on how they look when I've made all the necessary repairs. (No dents, but all the braces are messed up.)

Rick "it's held together with hose clamps right now" Denney

[jtm]

The "vintage" look hides imperfections better (or maybe it just lowers expectations).

If it's in great shape, I vote "frustration with keeping it clean."

I agree. Once you start polishing, @jtm, you will realize what an undertaking it is and how many little nooks, crannies and imperfections are in the tuba.

Fortunately, this F tuba has a lot less surface (duh) and the inner tubing is less complicated and easier to reach than on the BBb 186 I polished a while back. I got most of the bugle done enough in about 90 minutes. We’ll see how inspired I get to do much more, since just shining the bugle makes it look much more cheerful.

[Mary Ann]

Re polishing and tarnish, two different topics. I'm still considering trying the hot water with salt and foil method to shine up the Star. I just don't have the motivation to get in the nooks and crannies that are still black, although the larger parts like bell and bows have been "reasonably returned to shiny." I was wondering if I put a nice pad in the bottom of the bathtub, fill it as far as it will go with hot water, put aluminum foil underneath, and add the proper amount of salt, whatever that is, if I can dunk it long enough to get it back to silver, and then turn it over and dunk it the other way and end up with a totally shiny silver tuba again. I was told that this method does not remove silver, which would be a plus for me. Another benefit would be removal of tarnish on my bare feet as I stood in the tub wrestling with the tuba to do the dunking and turning. I'd leave the slides in all the way, tape over the vent holes, and stuff a wad in the bell to prevent as much as possible filling the tuba with water via the dunking.

[TheHatTuba]

If you have the space/willingness to do so, a 55 gal poly drum is way easier to navigate than a bath tub imo. One of the Brute trash cans (20/33/44 gal iirc) might be big enough as well.

[bloke]

I have found out that that smelly chemical - that is mixed with water, and which has a horrible egg sulfur smell - is still on the market. It's probably not offered to the general public, but a person who sells chemicals told me that it's still available and they even told me who sells it. Wearing nice thick black rubber gloves up to the elbows and dipping an old garbage washcloth into that stuff, I can go down a tuba and turn it from black to silver. If it's not shiny enough, I can certainly go over it with a silver polishing cloth instead of covering myself with red jewelers rouge powder on the buffing machine and wearing myself out. That having been said, when I've used that stuff in that manner on satin silver instruments, they have nearly sparkled, and required very little rubbing additionally with silver polishing cloths.

[jtm]

Fortunately, this F tuba has a lot less surface (duh) and the inner tubing is less complicated and easier to reach than on the BBb 186 I polished a while back. I got most of the bugle done enough in about 90 minutes. We’ll see how inspired I get to do much more, since just shining the bugle makes it look much more cheerful.

And now it plays better, too!

[jtm]

I recently acquired a 40 year old raw brass tuba that was shiny when it got to me, and shiny in the online pictures when I bought it. I had assumed that it was lacquered.

Is there an everyday (or every practice) ritual that can keep it that way? It's already getting unevenly unshiny as I use it. So I'm looking for something like wiping it down with the right kind of cloth after every practice, if that's a thing.

If it already had a good raw patina, I'd leave it that way, but the previous owner kept it shiny and it does look good that way.

shiny raw tuba - 1.jpeg (74.55 KiB) Viewed 1573 times

[Mary Ann]

I have found out that that smelly chemical - that is mixed with water, and which has a horrible egg sulfur smell - is still on the market. It's probably not offered to the general public, but a person who sells chemicals told me that it's still available and they even told me who sells it. Wearing nice thick black rubber gloves up to the elbows and dipping an old garbage washcloth into that stuff, I can go down a tuba and turn it from black to silver. If it's not shiny enough, I can certainly go over it with a silver polishing cloth instead of covering myself with red jewelers rouge powder on the buffing machine and wearing myself out. That having been said, when I've used that stuff in that manner on satin silver instruments, they have nearly sparkled, and required very little rubbing additionally with silver polishing cloths.

I'd almost be inclined to ask you to whisper to me what the chemical is and where to get it, but my further query would be how much silver does it take off compared to the rubbing sort of polish, and the assumption is that you wash it off with the hose afterwards. ??

To the fellow who suggested the huge drum, that assumes the dunker is tall enough and strong enough to dunk a tuba, and I'm not that. It's everything I can do to turn my Star bell side down to get the bag on and off it.

[bloke]

All it does is takes off silver oxide. Most silver polish is basically a super fine sandpaper. Does the chemical also remove some non-oxidized silver? I don't know. Does silver polish remove non-oxidized silver? It absolutely does.
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If my f tuba was that close to being ready to be lacquered. I'd kick in the last few hours, and shoot it with clear.