Know anything about this old Rudolf Sander tuba?

[Dave Detwiler]

Hi all - in my ongoing research on Jack Richardson, of Sousa's Band, I have located his great nephew! He not only has a bunch of the Richardson family history, but also Jack's last tuba that he played before he died in 1939.

What can you tell me about this vintage horn? According to the stamp on the bell (noted in the caption to the photo), it was built by Rudolf Sander. But what else can you tell me? And is this a BBb tuba, or a CC? ? Thanks so much!

Richardson's last tuba.jpg (176.36 KiB) Viewed 968 times

[bloke]

I'd wager as much as $100 on B-flat.
I tried to eyeball around the bugle (striving to not allow my original suspicion to affect my visual estimations), and came up with eighteen feet.
The #1 slide circuit is longer than a C circuit.
I myself just haven't seen any named-"Kaiser"-anything tubas which were built in C.

When and where was Mr. Richardson born?

[arpthark]

I'd wager as much as $100 on B-flat.
I tried to eyeball around the bugle (striving to not allow my original suspicion to affect my visual estimations), and came up with eighteen feet.
The #1 slide circuit is longer than a C circuit.
I myself just haven't seen any named-"Kaiser"-anything tubas which were built in C.

When and where was Mr. Richardson born?

In this case, "Kaiserslautern" is a town in Germany. But I do agree with you that it looks like a B-flat.

[Rick Denney]

Just for the sake of posterity, here's the Wikipedia content for Rudolph Sander, on German Wikipedia. Translation by Google.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Sander

"Rudolf Sander (born 1866 in Kaiserslautern; died October 30, 1942 in Wolfstein) was an instrument maker who mainly made brass instruments. He was the best-known scion of the Sander family of instrument makers, which ran workshops in Kaiserslautern, Wolfstein and Lauterecken .

After an itinerant apprenticeship, he opened a workshop in Wolfstein in 1892 to build instruments. His instruments were particularly popular with American orchestras and were praised for their purity of tone. He held several patents for brass instruments and corresponded with various greats in the music scene at the time. The company Carl Fischer, New York, offered him to take over the agency for his instruments in the USA and Canada. His great basses and giant tubas are well known.

A subcontra-C tuba made by him is considered the largest tuba in the world. It is now on display in the Musikantenland Museum at Lichtenberg Castle near Thallichtenberg in the Kusel district .

His son Friedrich, born in 1894, continued the workshop in Wolfstein. Another son, August, opened a workshop in Lauterecken."

That sub-contrabass in C looks a LOT like the sub-contrabasstuba used by Gerard Hoffnung, at least from the distance of this photo:



The second slide on Richardson's tuba seems like it's too long for anything but Bb. But that sub-contrabass tuba above is in C, and it's about as kaiser as it gets.

Interesting that back in the 30's and earlier, Americans could appreciate German instruments as being the best available. I suspect that this instrument may be one reason King made the 1291 rotary kaiser back in that era.

I love those finger buttons--such attention to detail.

Rick "knowledge starts with the obvious stuff" Denney

[bort2.0]

I don't know anything about this specific horn.

But I do remember that August Helleberg and Fred Geib also played Sander tubas (at least for a while). I think they were all around and active at the same time, but otherwise not totally sure how they intersected with each other. Geib may have bought Helleberg's tuba when Helleberg changed to Conn tubas...?

Not specific to this horn, but here is more Sander information:
https://brassandpipes.wordpress.com/201 ... a-ca-1900/

[Dave Detwiler]

When and where was Mr. Richardson born?

1874, in Akron, Pennsylvania, which is in Lancaster County. He joined the Sousa Band in 1904, and played with that famous band for a combined 22 years (1904-1910, 1912-1917, 1923-1932). He retired in the Harrisburg area (Steelton), setting up a cigar shop (his first job before pursuing music was as a cigar maker), and playing in the Harrisburg Symphony Orchestra before he became ill, eventually passing away in 1939.

[fosvandermeer]

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Sander
...
A subcontra-C tuba made by him is considered the largest tuba in the world. It is now on display in the Musikantenland Museum at Lichtenberg Castle near Thallichtenberg in the Kusel district .
...
That sub-contrabass in C looks a LOT like the sub-contrabasstuba used by Gerard Hoffnung, at least from the distance of this photo:

I have had a close look at the CCC tuba. But I believe the one shown here and on Wikipedia is actually only a very large CC, so no subcontra. Looking at the main tube length, it wraps around only once, comparable to sousaphones. CCC tubas wrap around a lot more.
Also comparing to the baritone horns hanging in the background, you'd expect the main tube of the tuba to be 4x as long. To me it looks only like 2x.

Any opinions about this? I just came across the image today but I seem to be the only one to notice?

Greetings,

Fos

[arpthark]

I decided to Google "Sander CCC tuba" and the first result on the web was some bloke or other playing it:



This one seems to have a lot more tubing wrapping around compared to the one above.

[Rick Denney]

Lost this thread before, so this is a late hit. The tuba in the picture being played by some Bloke is the Hoffnung instrument, in the prior residence of its current owner.

Rick "sat in that same chair, but probably made fartier sounds than Bloke" Denney

[bloke]

Lost this thread before, so this is a late hit. The tuba in the picture being played by some Bloke is the Hoffnung instrument, in the prior residence of its current owner.

Rick "sat in that same chair, but probably made fartier sounds than Bloke" Denney

You wouldn't want to hear recording of me trying to play that thing.

[arpthark]

I wonder if the MTS before the valves impacts playability...?