Mouthpiece to lead pipe gap?

[Grumpikins]

I follow Harrelson trumpets on u toob and recently a career musician posted a video of his visit and purchase there. Highlight of the video is discussion about the huge difference in playability due to the elimination of the said gap. Harrelson engineers and builds their own stuff and has a very unique mouthpiece-reciever-leadpipe design that includes a set of spacers to eliminate the gap.......very interesting.

I have also been told by a fellow I know who has spent a small amount of private lesson time with Alan Baer that this topic is very import to Mr Baer as well.....

Anybody here experiment with this?

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[donn]

AGR Tuba Receiver

I know nothing about this device, but it should be possible to find some commentary on it.

I do have the perception that a prime factor on mouthpiece performance is for me going to be how far it falls into the receiver. I don't believe any of my tubas will really form the "gap" in question, though - on the inside, the leadpipe is flush with the receiver. So whatever's going on there, it would have to be a question of how the mouthpiece backbore interacts with the leadpipe contour, and that's got to be pretty subtle.

[Grumpikins]

That is a significant part of the discussion. What caught my attention was the players reaction to the microscopic differences and how hugely an effect they had. It's very interesting.

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[donn]

I guess it's important to remember that we're artists, not engineers, and whatever works for us on our own level is what works. There have been people who swear they find a difference if they rotate their mouthpiece one way or the other. Insertion depth seems a little more likely to matter for more people. There's always flushing the gunk out of your horn and stuff like that - including the mouthpiece throat.

[Mary Ann]

I have noticed more that euphonium players are generally quite concerned with "the gap." I guess I'm not good enough to tell the difference. Horn players never even mention it. I've had astounding differences with different bells though, the other end.

[dp]

I guess it's important to remember that we're artists, not engineers, and whatever works for us on our own level is what works. There have been people who swear they find a difference if they rotate their mouthpiece one way or the other. Insertion depth seems a little more likely to matter for more people. There's always flushing the gunk out of your horn and stuff like that - including the mouthpiece throat.

we're also tuba players and not trumpeters

[donn]

I suppose a higher level of artistry is required of trumpet players.

[windshieldbug]

I suppose a higher level of artistry is required of trumpet players.

Like the pun, “higher level”…

[Grumpikins]

I have heard several tuba players mention "the gap" both here and out in person. I personally have never investigated it. I have always just done the best I can with what I have. However, hearing this trumpet player talk about his recent experience with "the gap" (and bore of the throat) along with the discussion here about blokes new mouthpieces; I'm interested in somehow exploring this topic with my tubas to see if I can tell a difference.....

Um.. perhaps after marching band season... pit crew dad duty is demanding..

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[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[bloke]

With more and more mouthpiece receivers being undercut in the back (to receive the mouthpipe tubes - resulting in a flush interior bore) and more mouthpieces featuring an interior taper at the back end, it's mostly less of a "gap" than is is "how much exposed downward-tapered receiver is exposed (ie. "backwards-tapered bore") prior to the smallest point of the bore in the instrument itself (where the mouthpipe tube actually begins).

The word "gap" mostly paints an incorrect picture of what exists.

(I've typed similar comments several times on this forum...sometimes with pictures...so I'm not going into further detail.)

[kingrob76]

I have three one-piece mouthpieces that are identical except for the shank size. One is an Alex shank, one is Euro, one is Standard. In a Euro receiver the Euro shank feels smoother to me. In a standard shank receiver the standard one feels easier to me. I have a bunch of the Houser made stuff with shanks that are both Euro and Standard, and I notice the same trends.

But these differences are, to me, minor at best and mostly impact slurs and articulations.

[bloke]

I have three one-piece mouthpieces that are identical except for the shank size. One is an Alex shank, one is Euro, one is Standard. In a Euro receiver the Euro shank feels smoother to me. In a standard shank receiver the standard one feels easier to me. I have a bunch of the Houser made stuff with shanks that are both Euro and Standard, and I notice the same trends.

But these differences are, to me, minor at best and mostly impact slurs and articulations.

I suspect that I prefer the same amount of negative taper of the mouthpiece receiver exposed regardless of the tuba and the mouthpiece, because I tend to do as you described in the post I quoted just above.

[windshieldbug]

A mind is a terrible thing to gap.

[bloke]

The name of the store, “The Gap” was a result of the wife of the founder (c. 1969) coming up with that name - referring to "the generation gap" (as they originally catered to high school and college children - selling 33/45 rpm records and blue jeans).

LOL...Now that so many more mature adults - percentage-wise - are completely gullible/incurious/irresponsible, notice that there are no longer any references to "the generation gap" in media.

noticed: Tons of those stores have closed...just as has "the generation gap" (as noticed in sentence #2, just above).

[TubaOso]

Gap can be thought of as the distance to a venturi. A venturi (constriction in a tube system) creates a pressure node. In trombone leadpipes, there’s really no sharp edge creating a definitive spot, but there’s still a venturi. In other brass, sometimes there is a sharp, definitive spot, sometimes there isn’t. Mouthpiece fit can make a difference by changing the distance to that pressure node.

Greetings, TubaForum.

[bloke]

A "venturi" - in my understanding - is an hour-glass-shaped restriction in a tube (typically, through which something flows).

The smallest point of a generic venturi (typically, the beginning of a mouthpipe tube) is sometimes generally referred to as the "throat".

Since we (as brass players) tend to think of a "throat" as the "throat" of a mouthpiece (actually, another - albeit quite distorted - venturi), I've come up with the term "choke point" to refer to the the smallest place in our venturis (which - nearly always - is the beginning of a mouthpipe tube)...

...and yes, back when more brass instrument solder-on mouthpiece receivers were less sophisticated in their designs, the smallest point ("choke point") was often a harsh bluff (ok...unless the mouthpipe tube itself was reamed on razor-thin on it's small end), but - now that most receivers are (again) undercut in the back, that spot is - more often - smooth-bored.

Instruments - whereby the receiver is simply a flared end of a mouthpipe tube (with a reinforcing tube soldered OVER that - for protection/reinforcement) - have always been smooth-bored at the choke point.

...I just can't embrace the word "gap" - as (these days) so many receivers are either made from the flared mouthpipe tube itself (typically: French horns and - more often - mouthpipes for rotary-valve tubas fabricated in "the old way" - aka "like French horn mouthpipes") or - if a soldered-on appliance - are undercut in the back...

again...
I'm not drawing/posting cut-away pictures (as I have before, too many times).

venturi - the entire hour-glass-shaped restricted/re-expanded portion of a tube - typically where liquid or gas flows through

throat - most often, the word used to describe the smallest point in a venturi, where (for these purposes, specifically) I prefer "choke point"

If the small end of a mouthpiece mates up absolutely perfectly with the throat/choke point of a venturi (which is not typical), then there is no venturi (other than at the throat of the inserted mouthpiece itself), and - past the mouthpiece's own throat - there is only expansion/increase of bore.

I'll tag @Rick Denney so he can comment as to whether he agrees with the stuff I posted in this reply.

[TubaOso]

Yes. For example, on some trombone leadpipes (I’m using trombone leadpipes as examples because they can be pulled and visually inspected easier than most other brass instruments) the end of the mouthpiece basically sits at the beginning of the expansion and provides no pressure node of any significance thus a “zero gap” situation, if we use the terms that have been commonly adopted. These often play more open. Other trombone leadpipes continue the taper that the mouthpiece shank mates with and there is a tight spot in the leadpipe further into tube. These often provide a bit more back pressure. People can call the condition whatever makes most sense to them. The mouthpiece throat is a venturi as well. There can be more than one in a system.

Seems this might be an angry or touchy subject here. I’ll leave it for others to discuss.

[jtm]

Greetings, TubaForum.

Greetings, and welcome!

[bloke]

Yes. For example, on some trombone leadpipes (I’m using trombone leadpipes as examples because they can be pulled and visually inspected easier than most other brass instruments) the end of the mouthpiece basically sits at the beginning of the expansion and provides no pressure node of any significance thus a “zero gap” situation, if we use the terms that have been commonly adopted. These often play more open. Other trombone leadpipes continue the taper that the mouthpiece shank mates with and there is a tight spot in the leadpipe further into tube. These often provide a bit more back pressure. People can call the condition whatever makes most sense to them. The mouthpiece throat is a venturi as well. There can be more than one in a system.

Seems this might be an angry or touchy subject here. I’ll leave it for others to discuss.

It's not touchy...We're glad you're here.

Exposing a little bit of backwards taper (in my experience) makes an instrument feel a little different, but not sound much different.
Feel is important.

Rick Denney knows a lot of general engineering stuff (and he actually IS a professional expert in FLOW - though you probably wouldn't be able to guess what type of flow...and no - not sewage, but close).