What IS this thing? -- a trombone-aruba?

[Mary Ann]

Guy showed up at brass band last night with a "trombonish something." It had three piston valves and a handful of snarly tubing right in the mouthpiece area, AND a working slide. I have never seen such a thing. My guess is this fellow has that because he is one of those people who plays everything but doesn't have the slide technique to wail away as a trombonist (which is where I would be too; this thing is intriguing to me.) So what IS that thing?

[bloke]

probably a superbone

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superbone

[bloke]

a gimmick horn, and expensive.. made by Holton for Maynard Ferguson. In first position, the valves are regular "three-valves-out-of-tune", and - the farther the slide goes out - the more out of tune it gets, obviously.

Of the two or three times I heard his band play, he picked it up one time (at Interlochen, that time), played it for about 45 seconds, and sounded like crap - to huge cheers.

If I saw a perfect condition one for sale - and certainly not a Chinese knockoff, I would buy it only to flip - because there are silly people who will buy them.

In 45 years of buying things to resell, I've never come across one of those that I thought was low enough priced or in good enough condition to buy to resell.

[Mary Ann]

I haven't heard how he sounds on it, but it appears he's in the brass band due to lack of available trombone players. Things keep happening to people, and in this band it's the trombones who have suffered.

Seems to me that if you can use both the valves and the slide at the same time, the slide could be used similarly to how many tuba players use the first valve slide, for resonance and intonation, as opposed to "putting it in a different key via a valve combination" and then trying to play it as a differently-keyed trombone.

In any case, I ain't going to buy one but was immensely curious. He called it a "double trombone" and nope not that -- a double any brass has two sets of valve slides and a change valve.

[Mary Ann]

And then there is this. The ultimate superbone

[Mary Ann]

I bet that thing costs an arm and a leg. With the rotors, ha, I could probably even play it somewhat.

[Bob Kolada]

I haven't heard how he sounds on it, but it appears he's in the brass band due to lack of available trombone players. Things keep happening to people, and in this band it's the trombones who have suffered.

Seems to me that if you can use both the valves and the slide at the same time, the slide could be used similarly to how many tuba players use the first valve slide, for resonance and intonation, as opposed to "putting it in a different key via a valve combination" and then trying to play it as a differently-keyed trombone.

In any case, I ain't going to buy one but was immensely curious. He called it a "double trombone" and nope not that -- a double any brass has two sets of valve slides and a change valve.

If I couldn't play a slide horn, and really can't anymore, and wanted a trombone like experience I think I'd prefer one of those compact front end valve trombones with a main slide thumb ring or kicker. It would be much lighter and not make you want to cut your hands off. I wouldn't even consider a 4th valve or an F trigger. .547 or .562 valve section from a marching baritone, 8.5" straight bell section and a 4/5g mp and it might be pretty convincing along side regular .547 trombones.
My trombone like experience horn is actually baritone shaped with a usable main slide so what do I know.

Jim Self has a bass trombone version!


imo the only really interesting updated trombones are ascending horns, whether that little Bb/C Yamaha (you could really do some slick tricks and glisses) or some kind of contrabass with a regular valve and an ascending valve. The guy who built my TLEH made a Bb/F/C contrabass for his buddy. That's really cool, low and pedal C and B are played on the C side and you could simplify a lot of stuff considering you're playing a heavy double slide horn. The whole big Ring ascending motif, from G top of the staff to pedal E, can be played in the first few positions and it still sounds like a trombone.

[Mary Ann]

Interesting info.

If I were going to get into "something like a trombone-land," frankly the thing that attracts me is the cimbasso, because I don't have to hold it up, and apparently it sounds cool too. And I already am facile with F fingerings. However, not expecting to grace my stable with one anytime soon. I'm still noticeably improving on the Eb tuba over time; tuba quartet is starting to sound not half bad, and we played a piece tonight that I didn't end up singing some of the measures again because of not remembering the Eb fingerings fast enough.

[Tubeast]

Thomann has listed the Schagerl superbone at roughly 6400 €.
While that sure may be a serious investment, it´s not THAT much for a professionably usable niche-instrument by one of Austria´s finest makers...

And in that clip posted above, Morrison quite tastefully and effectively demonstrates why that may not be just a gimmick in the right hands...

[bloke]

Thomann has listed the Schagerl superbone at roughly 6400 €.
While that sure may be a serious investment, it´s not THAT much for a professionably usable niche-instrument by one of Austria´s finest makers...

And in that clip posted above, Morrison quite tastefully and effectively demonstrates why that may not be just a gimmick in the right hands...

That thing impressed me when I saw it this video several years ago, but it inevitably made me wonder about why having a slide at all, and just have a really nice-playing large bore valved instrument which is shaped like a trombone - as far as the overall taper.

To explain a little further, there probably isn't an F tuba which can't be played completely in tune with six valves and a main slide trigger on board (and this would even include not-particularly-good F tubas which don't innately play in tune (ie. most F tubas ).

When I started trying to think why there should be a slide - for a trombone which is used to play classical music (unless someone's executing a glissando), the only answer I could come up with was "because"...

...Currently, I'm building myself a bass trombone with a regular F-attachment and playing slide, but I'm also building a separate six-valve .562" bore valveset (4+2 config) which includes a main tuning slide with a trigger...which completely acts as a substitute for playing slide, and bolts onto the bell section. (Unlike the demo video, I'm not doing it to enhance my amazing slide technique with valves, but to get around my very ~poor~ slide technique with valves. In past decades, I worked really hard to make bass trombone a double, but realized pretty soon that I had to spend a whole bunch of time practicing on the trombone in order to develop reliable slide positions, and it just took away too much time from my tuba work.)





@LeMark

I'm thinking that the setup (video that you shared) tends to cater to jazz players and classical trombone soloists who play a bunch of fast passages (Carl Fontana passage-quoters, Creston Fantasy players, etc.) yet who need a seven-position slide for glissandi.

[jtm]

Personally I think the same thing could be accomplished with a slide that is only one or two positions long. I don't think you need a full 7 positions on an instrument like that

[bloke]

now...
A Super-DUPER bone would feature three valves with some sort of laser detection device (which watches a point on the playing slide), and gives feedback to individual servos on each of the valve slides and moves them out according to the position of the playing slide...

...ie. an ULTIMATELY automatic-compensating system, which outruns the Blaikley System 10-to-1.

[windshieldbug]

now...
A Super-DUPER bone would feature three valves with some sort of laser detection device (which watches a point on the playing slide), and gives feedback to individual servos on each of the valve slides and moves them out according to the position of the playing slide...

...ie. an ULTIMATELY automatic-compensating system, which outruns the Blaikley System 10-to-1.

... which is why the Marzan slant-valve was so much fun to play with trombones!

[Mary Ann]

I play the trombone part in our long-standing BQT, either on euph or horn. I just have trouble with top piston valves and am physically unable to operate them as quickly as is often required. However, we don't perform and are definitely a "play for fun" quintet, but I have wondered what "rotary thing that plays reasonably in tune" that would fit on the part, that, of course, I don't have to hold up out of my lap. Tried that rotary bariton that was remarkably unable to be played in tune by me, but which was ergonomically quite nice. I didn't like the sound that much though. I have still not seen anything that meets all the criteria. The superbone wasn't a contender though, just "interesting." A cimbasso that could be played in the range needed, by me, would be a contender, but I'm guessing that with its normal sit-on-the-floor position, the mouthpiece would hit me in the forehead, requiring transport of a stool to sit on.

[bloke]

I haven't seen an f cimbasso l that doesn't feature an adjustable floor peg, but most of them - from $4,000 to $24,000 - are wretched.

You may have caught a glimpse of a valve trombone hanging on the wall here. I use it for playing tailgate in jazz bands and switching over to it in polka bands (particularly when the accordionist is really good with the buttons). I would like to find a trashed three valve compensating English baritone - yet with the valves in good condition. It would be a shame to mess up my mint condition California Olds valve trombone, but I wouldn't mind sticking a comp valve section on another bell section and giving it a go. It would be nice to have 1-3 and 1-2-3 in tune.

... I have one of those small copper Conn bell sections which sounds really pretty and might be a good candidate.

[Bob Kolada]

I play the trombone part in our long-standing BQT, either on euph or horn. I just have trouble with top piston valves and am physically unable to operate them as quickly as is often required. However, we don't perform and are definitely a "play for fun" quintet, but I have wondered what "rotary thing that plays reasonably in tune" that would fit on the part, that, of course, I don't have to hold up out of my lap. Tried that rotary bariton that was remarkably unable to be played in tune by me, but which was ergonomically quite nice. I didn't like the sound that much though. I have still not seen anything that meets all the criteria. The superbone wasn't a contender though, just "interesting." A cimbasso that could be played in the range needed, by me, would be a contender, but I'm guessing that with its normal sit-on-the-floor position, the mouthpiece would hit me in the forehead, requiring transport of a stool to sit on.

Have you tried an American baritone? King makes 4 front valve horns with upright and recording bells. It would sound a little leaner than a British style comp euph and you'd have front valves. I like playing my comp euph, especially once I learned the low range, but really don't like top valves either.

[Bob Kolada]

There's also this thing-



https://www.robbstewart.com/contrabass-trombones-eb

[Finetales]

Personally I think the same thing could be accomplished with a slide that is only one or two positions long. I don't think you need a full 7 positions on an instrument like that

I tend to agree with this line of thinking, though I'd probably want 4 or 5 positions just to have a bunch of extra space for longer slide effects and to be able to play higher-register lines all on the slide. Some of the trumpet equivalents (originally the Holton "Firebird", also made for Maynard) don't have 7 positions on the handslide. To take it further, I think it would be interesting to make a compact superbone that forces the player to use both the valves and the slide together at all times - give it 2 valves (normal whole and half step) and a 4 position slide, meaning it can only play chromatically by using both. I bet people would play that very differently than they would a normal superbone.

I think trombonists tend to want the full 7 positions so they can play ENTIRELY on either the slide or valves, in addition to switching between or using both at once. However, on every superbone except the Schagerl, the valve section moves 1st position way further out, so you can't even reach 7th anyway. (Funnily enough, that means it's not fully chromatic either.)

If you're proficient on both valves and the slide, superbones are an absolute riot to play. Obviously not necessary, but does everything have to be necessary?

Spending collector-grade prices on an original Holton is pointless as they weren't that good anyway. I played a Wessex at a convention years ago that played extremely well, so I would just pick up a Chinese one and call it a day. It's honestly probably a better valve trombone than any dedicated valve-only trombones you can buy at or below its price. The only one I've played that was better was a valve trombone in C, which is a whole different thing.

Of course, if you're ok with buying used, you can get a nice Olds or King flugabone for cheaper and those are a lot more practical. But the Chinese superbones are actually one of the better sub-$1k valve trombone options out there, and they have a full handslide as a bonus!

[Mary Ann]

Have you tried an American baritone? King makes 4 front valve horns with upright and recording bells. It would sound a little leaner than a British style comp euph and you'd have front valves. I like playing my comp euph, especially once I learned the low range, but really don't like top valves either.

Yes one of the ones along the way was a Conn front valve baritone. It was ergonomically impossible -- didn't rest on my lap and trying to hold it up and get the leadpipe angle correct, was worse than any other I've tried. So yeah I had the same idea and no go.

As an aside -- one of the reasons I play rotors is hand strength; for fast passages I have to slap at them from the wrist because finger strength is not enough. And sometimes I have to wham them with two fingers at once. Horn does not have that problem because the strength required to move the levers is way less.

[Bob Kolada]

Have you tried an American baritone? King makes 4 front valve horns with upright and recording bells. It would sound a little leaner than a British style comp euph and you'd have front valves. I like playing my comp euph, especially once I learned the low range, but really don't like top valves either.

Yes one of the ones along the way was a Conn front valve baritone. It was ergonomically impossible -- didn't rest on my lap and trying to hold it up and get the leadpipe angle correct, was worse than any other I've tried. So yeah I had the same idea and no go.

As an aside -- one of the reasons I play rotors is hand strength; for fast passages I have to slap at them from the wrist because finger strength is not enough. And sometimes I have to wham them with two fingers at once. Horn does not have that problem because the strength required to move the levers is way less.

I played a 'rehabbed' Conn with a removable bell years ago that was pretty iffy, I felt bad for the guy who had just bought it. I think the fixed bell horns have a higher receiver but that doesn't help with the valves.