What to do about missing Eb sousaphone bits?

[bebeababa]

I recently acquired a 1930s-era Holton Eb sousaphone, including what appears to be the original neck and one tuning bit. It's possible for me to awkwardly play the horn with the single bit, but I'd love to find a second one. I purchased a new pair from here https://www.1800usaband.com/products/view/794, but they didn't fit the neck I have (I'm assuming because they were intended for a BBb sousaphone). It seems the original bit is quite a bit smaller than the typical BBb bits---an American-shank mouthpiece only goes in about 1 inch or so.

So, does anyone have any advice on how to track down replacement Holton Eb sousaphone bits? Or is it possible to custom-make a replacement?

Thanks!

Daniel

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[bloke]

"about an inch or so" seems about right, to me...

...unless you have an older King tuba or 6/4 Holton tuba (etc...) which has a really large (euro or "just about" euro) receiver, and you are accustomed to that...(??)

"Didn't fit the neck" is a bigger issue...
The two (if genuine Holton or a faithful replica set) are not the same.
I'm sure you tried them both ways...

[bebeababa]

Post a pic of what you have. Take some measurements and post those, too.

Gotcha, here's a link to a bunch of pictures: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ivt6MDrca3dWmoW18

The female end of the neck's inner diameter is a bit less than 5/8". The female end of the bit's inner diameter is about 1/2". Happy to provide other measurements. :-)

"about an inch or so" seems about right, to me...

You'll see in the photo album there's a picture of a PT-88 inserted into the one tuning bit I have. The shank only goes in about an inch, which doesn't look right to me.

...unless you have an older King tuba or 6/4 Holton tuba (etc...) which has a really large (euro or "just about" euro) receiver, and you are accustomed to that...(??)

No, my other tuba (Rudy Meinl 3/4 CC) I believe takes an American shank mouthpiece (which I think is what that PT-88 is?).

"Didn't fit the neck" is a bigger issue...
The two (if genuine Holton or a faithful replica set) are not the same.
I'm sure you tried them both ways...

Yes sir, tried them both ways, but didn't fit.

Thanks for everyone's input. :-)

[PlayTheTuba]

You might need either Denis Wick number 1-5 WITHOUT the "L," or Kelly mouthpieces offer a "small tuba/old Eb shank" too. I've heard the Kelly's are still larger compared to the Denis Wick Mouthpieces. Basically old Eb shank is about the same size as a bass trombone shank.

Kelly makes plastic, brass, regular/heavy stainless steel, and 2 piece regular/heavy stainless steel too.

OR

Get in contact with Bloke, Parker, or Doug Elliot for a 3 piece mouthpiece that has the smaller shank option.

OR

See if you can get different bits that still fits the neck?

[bloke]

I'm not going to badger or argue, but I'm just pointing out - in this last post that I'm going to make in this thread - that a whole bunch of mouthpieces today don't feature the "extended bell" seen on many older exterior mouthpieces. This leaves the shanks longer, and it makes an inch of shank insertion into a mouthpiece receiver seem like not enough. Mouthpieces that are shaped like Bach mouthpieces- with probably just about the shortest shanks - look as if they are inserted deeper, because less of the remaining shank can be seen, once the mouthpiece is inserted.

[PlayTheTuba]

EDIT: I'll post 3 photos, even though the King Sousaphone bit that I own seems to go about the same on my pt-48 I bought around 2009? 2010? At the Army Band Conference.

From left to right
Denis Wick 2 "Heritage" (I think Denis Wick doesn't make the non-"L" models with this outer shell anymore, ie "Heritage"): Small/British shank
Laskey 30H - US: American Shank
Kelly XXL: 1 piece Stainless Steel Version with American Shank
Perantucci (pt)-48: Bought around 2009-10? at the Army Band Conference. As far as I am aware, should be Euro shank by default.

First Photo


Second Photo. All of the mouthpieces and their approximate spot with the King Sousaphone bit. Proportions are going to be a tad funky.


Third Photo. All of the mouthpieces and their approximate spot with the King Sousaphone bit plus opacity. Proportions are going to be a tad funky.


Note: If I do another photo like this in the future, I'll chose a more stable surface, and have the phone/camera stay in the same spot for consistency.

And yes, I do prefer the Denis Wick 2 mouthpiece to go in a lot deeper than it probably should. Also helps with tubas that like to play a little flat, like my Universities Conn 3j 4 valve CC tuba for example. "Gap" shh-map.

[bebeababa]

Great, thanks guys. Learning a lot.

EDIT: I'll post 3 photos, even though the King Sousaphone bit that I own seems to go about the same on my pt-48 I bought around 2009? 2010? At the Army Band Conference.

From left to right
Denis Wick 2 "Heritage" (I think Denis Wick doesn't make the non-"L" models with this outer shell anymore, ie "Heritage"): Small/British shank
Laskey 30H - US: American Shank
Kelly XXL: 1 piece Stainless Steel Version with American Shank
Perantucci (pt)-48: Bought around 2009-10? at the Army Band Conference. As far as I am aware, should be Euro shank by default.

First Photo


Second Photo. All of the mouthpieces and their approximate spot with the King Sousaphone bit. Proportions are going to be a tad funky.


Third Photo. All of the mouthpieces and their approximate spot with the King Sousaphone bit plus opacity. Proportions are going to be a tad funky.


Note: If I do another photo like this in the future, I'll chose a more stable surface, and have the phone/camera stay in the same spot for consistency.

And yes, I do prefer the Denis Wick 2 mouthpiece to go in a lot deeper than it probably should. Also helps with tubas that like to play a little flat, like my Universities Conn 3j 4 valve CC tuba for example. "Gap" shh-map.

Awesome, so it's been a long time since I've played on a sousaphone of any type. I assumed that "standard" sousaphone bits would be about the same size as an tuba mouthpiece receiver (is that the right word?) designed for an American-sized shank. But if I understand @PlayTheTuba's pictures, tuning bits are quite a bit smaller. (Although comparing PlayTheTuba's picture of a pt-48 in their King bit to my picture of a pt-88 in the Holton bit seems to show that the Holton bit is a little smaller still.)

I'm not going to badger or argue, but I'm just pointing out - in this last post that I'm going to make in this thread - that a whole bunch of mouthpieces today don't feature the "extended bell" seen on many older exterior mouthpieces. This leaves the shanks longer, and it makes an inch of shank insertion into a mouthpiece receiver seem like not enough. Mouthpieces that are shaped like Bach mouthpieces- with probably just about the shortest shanks - look as if they are inserted deeper, because less of the remaining shank can be seen, once the mouthpiece is inserted.

Interesting point, thanks for sharing. IIUC you're saying that a modern mouthpiece shape will have more exposed shank and appear to not go in far enough compared to a traditional Bach-shaped mouthpiece, even though both actually have the same amount of shank inserted in the instrument. As mentioned above, I think part of my misunderstanding is that I didn't understand how much smaller a tuning bit is than a tuba mouthpiece receiver, and the other part is that the Holton bit is indeed a bit smaller than the King bit that @PlayTheTuba shared. I'll keep your point in mind, though.

But, back to the original point of the post: does anyone have any tips on how to track down a second Holton Eb sousaphone bit?

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[bloke]

The pair of King tuning bits sold by King forever are two different sizes. The smaller of the two is designed to receive a mouthpiece. I haven't read the thread enough to know what's going on with those four tuning bits, but if those are two sets of tuning bits, those are two of one size and two of the other.

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[PlayTheTuba]

I agree with @Dents Be Gone! that you might need a mouthpiece with the small euro/British/Eb shank with your current set up.

Another option but maybe more costly, is to get a more modern Sousaphone neck and adapt it to fit your Holton sousaphone. And then use the bits ment for that particular neck.

I'd personally see if you can modify a conn 20k and use the Conn sousaphone bits. At least you won't have to worry about which bit fits what, seeing as the Conn ones are the same.

Unlike King Sousaphone bits because the one that fits the mouthpiece always seemed to get lost when I marched in highschool.


The one sousaphone bit that is shown in the pictures is the smaller one, the one with wider ring. The one that holds the mouthpiece.

[bebeababa]

I don’t think you’re missing a bit. I think the neck and bit you have been repaired badly after being bent/pulled down and the angles are uncomfortable. The single bit you have is made to receive a mouthpiece that was commonly used on Eb tubas of the time. Their shanks were very similar to bass trombone shanks.

Interesting, hadn't considered this perspective. Was it common for Eb sousaphones to be designed to use only one bit back when they were popular? I assumed that I needed two since I find the ergonomics of using one no that great, but, like you said, maybe the bit I have is damaged.

Another option but maybe more costly, is to get a more modern Sousaphone neck and adapt it to fit your Holton sousaphone. And then use the bits ment for that particular neck.

I'd personally see if you can modify a conn 20k and use the Conn sousaphone bits. At least you won't have to worry about which bit fits what, seeing as the Conn ones are the same.

Cool, I had heard of others doing something like this. Any reason you suggest the 20k in particular?

[bebeababa]

I don’t think you’re missing a bit. I think the neck and bit you have been repaired badly after being bent/pulled down and the angles are uncomfortable. The single bit you have is made to receive a mouthpiece that was commonly used on Eb tubas of the time. Their shanks were very similar to bass trombone shanks.

FWIW this 1948 Holton catalog has a picture of the model 111 Eb sousaphone that appears to have two bits (check out page 18): https://www.saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/594 My sousaphone dates to the 1930s and looks a bit different than the one shown there, so not a slam dunk.

[PlayTheTuba]

Cool, I had heard of others doing something like this. Any reason you suggest the 20k in particular?

I am not familiar with other brands or models Sousaphone hardware outside of King 2350 (and older? King midels) and Conn 20ks.

20k sousaphone bits are interchangeable, so if one gets lost you can just easily borrow another one or have spares handy.

For the other brands or models, I'm not sure how easy it is to get parts. Of course everyone was easier to obtain before covid... Generally, Conn/King is usually good about getting parts for people or organizations (schools) that need them.

Although, generally, I've heard these past few years members of this forum mention that Yamaha and Miraphone are also generally good about getting parts... Not sure if that holds true for Miraphone Sousaphone parts though...

Other brands that still make? or at list Sousaphones on their website? off the top of my head are:

Miraphone
Yamaha
Wessex
Jupiter
Eastmon

------------ The part below can be skipped, my experience or personal thoughts------------------------

HS Musical -- Although I don't think anyone has imported any of their stuff, and not much is known about them in North America. No idea how good or well made their stuff is. They made stuff for Weril though, assuming the quality is still around "Weril level."

In my Highschool marching days everyone for whatever reason keep losing the King bit that holds the mouthpiece. And when practicing with the older sousaphones, the necks loooveed to rotate and the mouthpiece or even mouthpiece plus bits love to hit the asphalt below.

Except for one person, the other King bit, the one with the thinner ring, is just big enough where most mouthpieces wouldn't seal properly. Due to either bottoming out or the shank is not big/thick enough.